vintage port

[audi4563]

hi, my 86 yr old auntie has given me 3 bottles of vintage port to sell and also a bottle of 70% john haig Dimples whisky, we know one of them is worth quite a lot. we need to know how to go about selling them, can anyone advise me, Thanks

[jdaw1]

Hello.

Please say more. Please say what the ports are or post a picture of each bottle. And how have they been stored perhaps standing in the kitchen, or lying down in a cupboard under the stairs, or something else?

Also, where are you? (Or more usefully, where are the bottles?)

70% whisky is unusual. Again, a photo would be very welcome.

Thank you.

[audi4563]

NIEPOORT'S, 30 yr old port, aged in wood and bottled 1978
KOPKE Quinta Luiz vintage port 1977
Constantino's vintage port, 1927
Dimples 70% john haig whisky
they have been stored in the bottom of my aunts wardrobe since she's had them, we live in Rochester , Kent.

I will get photos and upload them asap.

[DRT]

The method of storage is not good news for the value of the Port but will probably not affect the whisky.

For how long has your grandmother had these bottles?

Has the Port been stored standing up or lying down?

[jdaw1]

86 yr old auntie

grandmother

Perhaps easy to confuse at this distance.

[DRT]

Oops! Sorry.

[g-man]

FWIW, the constantino 1927 just came on auction blocks last month, I lost my bid at 250,
hammer was 300$ + 23% buyers

[audi4563]

my aunt has had these for 40+ yrs, they were in her cellar lying down until about 20yrs ago where they have been in the bottom of her wardrobe

[audi4563]

not sure if its me just being thick but i cant see how i put photo's on !!!

[djewesbury]

not sure if its me just being thick but i cant see how i put photo's on !!!

it's not you being thick - it is a bit fiddly. you need to have them uploaded somewhere (tumblr, or a page on a website you have access to, or something similar), and then link to them using the url, like so:

Code: Select all

[img]http://www.yourimageURLhere.com[/img]

[jdaw1]

[jdaw1]

[jdaw1]

[jdaw1]

26⅔ fl. oz., so pre-1973ish; and 70° proof = 40%.

[jdaw1]

I have been sent a lot of large pictures. PM me if you want to be sent those of a particular bottle.

[mpij]

The Dimple lablel shows 70 degrees proof which I think is aprox 40% abv.

[JB vintage]

Fake alert!
Hello everyone! Please take care if you are interested in buying the Constantino 1927. The seal is from the 1990's and is not a seal for Constantino 1927.

[RAYC]

It may have been released ex-cellars?

I know that AHB has had a Constantino 27 that had a selo...

How do you date the selo so precisely to the 1990s?

[DRT]

I think that style of selo came into use in the 1970's, which is consistent with the story. As far as I am aware all 1927s would have had no selo when originally released as (a) they would almost all have been bottled outside Gaia and (b) the selo didn't come into use until after the IVP was created in 1931. It is highly likely that a number of bottles were released from the Constantino cellars when the brand was acquired by Ferreira.

I think this bottle is not a fake.

[g-man]

It may have been released ex-cellars?

I know that AHB has had a Constantino 27 that had a selo...

How do you date the selo so precisely to the 1990s?

unless it was released ex cellars, I dont believe it's possible for anything pre 30s? (don't quote me on year i'm fuzzy) to have a selo.

as with the 1990s, I'd be curious to know also!

I've tried with contacting the ivdp in the past, but they really only respond to certain parties

[audi4563]

the constantino port 1927 was given to my uncle in late 40's - early 50's. My uncle worked for Kork n seal on the isle of dogs where the corks were made, he went to portugal to where the cork making trees were, he was given this bottle from the owners private collection, 1927 was the yr my aunt was born

[Glenn E.]

The Dimple lablel shows 70 degrees proof which I think is aprox 40% abv.

40% via the British conversion (proof = 7/4 ABV) but 35% using the American conversion (proof = 2 * ABV).

Probably 40% then seeing as it's Scottish.

[RAYC]

the constantino port 1927 was given to my uncle in late 40's - early 50's.

Are you sure about this?

This presents a difficulty in believability - the white paper seal that covers the wax is a style that, as DRT mentions in the post above, didn't come into use until at least the 1970s (and JBvintage thinks comes from the 1990s).

Broadly speaking, the seal is only added when the bottle is being prepared to be shipped / sold from the Port lodge / winery. This means that, while you can have a very old wine with a modern seal, you can't have a very old wine with a modern seal that was given to your uncle in the 40s / 50s (unless he himself added the seal at a later date)!

[edit: i also notice that the bottle has a moulded glass logo on it - i must admit, i've never seen a bottle from the 20s / 30s with this feature, but i'm no expert by any means. Could this be an incorrectly labelled colheita?)]

[g-man]

the constantino port 1927 was given to my uncle in late 40's - early 50's.

Are you sure about this?

This presents a difficulty in believability - the white paper seal that covers the wax is a style that, as DRT mentions in the post above, didn't come into use until at least the 1970s (and JBvintage thinks comes from the 1990s).

Broadly speaking, the seal is only added when the bottle is being prepared to be shipped / sold from the Port lodge / winery. This means that, while you can have a very old wine with a modern seal, you can't have a very old wine with a modern seal that was given to your uncle in the 40s / 50s (unless he himself added the seal at a later date)!

[edit: i also notice that the bottle has a moulded glass logo on it - i must admit, i've never seen a bottle from the 20s / 30s with this feature, but i'm no expert by any means)]

moulded glass / logo actually came around in the early 1800s I believe so it's entirely possible.

however without looking at the empty contents of the bottle itself, it's kinda hard to pinpoint a date from the photos

[jdaw1]

I have been sent a lot of large pictures. PM me if you want to be sent those of a particular bottle.

[g-man]

I have been sent a lot of large pictures. PM me if you want to be sent those of a particular bottle.

so the bottles were empty? =)

[audi4563]

the bottles are all unopened and original

[audi4563]

so where do i go to get the bottles of port varified and valued, thanks.

[DRT]

As you live in Rochester I would suggest you take them to Dickens House Wine Emporium and ask them for a valuation and to make you an offer. They seem to have a reasonable selection of Port and fine wines so should know what they are doing.

[Andy Velebil]

Fake alert!
Hello everyone! Please take care if you are interested in buying the Constantino 1927. The seal is from the 1990's and is not a seal for Constantino 1927.

Having done some previous research that Selo is post very early 1970's.

This is a Colheita, as are most old constantino's.

It is probably real, as best I can tell from the pics, but the story of being given it that long ago is impossible.

[Andy Velebil]

I think that style of selo came into use in the 1970's, which is consistent with the story. As far as I am aware all 1927s would have had no selo when originally released as (a) they would almost all have been bottled outside Gaia and (b) the selo didn't come into use until after the IVP was created in 1931. It is highly likely that a number of bottles were released from the Constantino cellars when the brand was acquired by Ferreira.

I think this bottle is not a fake.

FYI, Constantino (Quinta do Crasto) used to have a lodge in Gaia back in the old days. So this could have been bottled there.

But you are correct that Ferreira has owned it since 1963(ish). It is a Colheita which was probably released after Ferreira bought it. When it was actually bottled may be a different story.

[DRT]

Andy,

The point I was making is that when the 1927s were originally bottled (in 1929) they could not have had selos as selos were not yet in use.

Why do you think this is a colheita?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Andy Velebil]

Andy,

The point I was making is that when the 1927s were originally bottled (in 1929) they could not have had selos as selos were not yet in use.

Why do you think this is a colheita?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The reason I say it's a Colheita has nothing to do with the Selo. The label and bottle are consistent with what was used to bottle their tawny Ports. It is also consistent with all the other Colheita's I've had from this label. The only old VP bottles I've seen or drank from did not use this molded bottle design and label. That said, I've only seen a few bottles of very old VP from this house as they are exceedingly rare (and as mentioned a different type bottle/label from what i've experienced).

The label is not an original Constantino label. Actually, this label gives me real pause. The type set used for the word "Vintage" is incorrect for pre-owned Ferreira. Only on later Ferreira owned labels I've seen spelled out the words Sociedade dos Vinhos do Porto. Even the label I have from a 1910 Colheita bottled in 1971 doesn't have this. So I suspect this was a label used post (at least) 1971. Ferreira also released a lot of old Constantino tawny stocks circa late 1960's - 1970's.

For these reasons it appears to me to be a Colheita.

Again, the story of being given this in the 40's or 50's is impossible given the Selo alone. Add in the label design and it's completely impossible.

[jdaw1]

Another picture of the Cn27’s selo and bottle.

[djewesbury]

The type set used for the word "Vintage" is incorrect for pre-owned Ferreira.

That typeface is Univers, which was designed in 1954 and released in 1957, if that's of any use.

[Andy Velebil]

The type set used for the word "Vintage" is incorrect for pre-owned Ferreira.

That typeface is Univers, which was designed in 1954 and released in 1957, if that's of any use.

Thank you for the info. However Constantino used a very unique design for their lettering / labels.

[djewesbury]

The type set used for the word "Vintage" is incorrect for pre-owned Ferreira.

That typeface is Univers, which was designed in 1954 and released in 1957, if that's of any use.

Thank you for the info. However Constantino used a very unique design for their lettering / labels.

Exactly. If we consult Phil W's VP identification gallery we find this image:

This is a 66 - so post-Ferreira. But the typeface for the word 'Vintage' is entirely different from that used on the "27".
We have established it has a selo that was put on many years after 1929.
We have established that it uses a typeface that wasn't available until 1957, at which point Constantino labels presumably used a version of the 'handwritten' label archived by Phil here.
We have established that after 1963ish, the typeface used on the label (for that word VINTAGE, and the date) was that seen above.
So, what have we established?

[g-man]

that I saw this bottle hammer fro 300$ USD if the OP was wondering any indication of worth

[RAYC]

that I saw this bottle hammer fro 300$ USD if the OP was wondering any indication of worth

Which bottle? We don't yet know what this bottle is!!

[g-man]

that I saw this bottle hammer fro 300$ USD if the OP was wondering any indication of worth

Which bottle? We don't yet know what this bottle is!!

the selo'd one with a similar looking label =)

[JB vintage]

It looks that we have established that this bottle is not authentic, and that there are several things that are not correct on this one. If is good to be able to spot a faulty bottle and I have learned several new things during this discussion.

If the bottle g-man saw in the US was similar, perhaps that was a fake too?

djewesbury- you say that the typeface is Univers and thus post 57. Just out of curiosity, are you referring to the typeface on the bottle or the word Vintage on the label? Or are they the same?

I did find a label of 1947 when googling this and the design of the label is different http://www.port-blog.com/.a/6a00d8341cc ... 0e6970c-pi I hope you do not mind showing the link here Axel.

[Andy Velebil]

It looks that we have established that this bottle is not authentic, and that there are several things that are not correct on this one.

That is NOT TRUE. This bottle may very well be and probably is authentic. I see nothing that makes it a forgery at this point in time.

However, it was originally released after the Contstantino brand was sold to Ferreira.

Most likely this is a tawny Port.

What is not correct is the story of being given it back in the 1940's - 50's. As that would be impossible given the label and Selo strip design.

[djewesbury]

It looks that we have established that this bottle is not authentic, and that there are several things that are not correct on this one.

I think we need further information before we can be conclusive on that but it is certainly anomalous..

djewesbury- you say that the typeface is Univers and thus post 57. Just out of curiosity, are you referring to the typeface on the bottle or the word Vintage on the label? Or are they the same?

Just to the word 'Vintage' and the date, 1927, below it. The bottle seems genuine enough - surely a very complex and costly thing to fake! If nobody has seen any other Constantinos that use this typeface - and it is surely possible that a mislabelled Colheita was bottled many years later, and that the typeface used on this bottling was not the same as that used in other post-Ferreira labels - then it still is not enough to say that this is a fake, necessarily, even with the added information of the selo.

I did find a label of 1947 when googling this and the design of the label is different http://www.port-blog.com/.a/6a00d8341cc ... 0e6970c-pi I hope you do not mind showing the link here Axel.

This is a 41 - but the label is the same design as the 47 I posted above I think.

[Andy Velebil]

.....and it is surely possible that a mislabelled Colheita was bottled many years later...

The hard part is often times, as we know, when a Tawny Port is sold in different countries different wording was often used on the label. Think of Graham's "Single Harvest" on the label for their new Tawny's instead of using the term "Colheita". So it is possible this was a tawny sold somewhere where the term "Colheita" would not have been accepted (like the UK, who is adverse to the term) and the simple term vintage was used instead.

That is all speculation on our part. Heck it very well may be a ruby port for all we know. I will reach out and see if I can get a definitive answer on this.

[g-man]

.....and it is surely possible that a mislabelled Colheita was bottled many years later...

The hard part is often times, as we know, when a Tawny Port is sold in different countries different wording was often used on the label. Think of Graham's "Single Harvest" on the label for their new Tawny's instead of using the term "Colheita". So it is possible this was a tawny sold somewhere where the term "Colheita" would not have been accepted (like the UK, who is adverse to the term) and the simple term vintage was used instead.

That is all speculation on our part. Heck it very well may be a ruby port for all we know. I will reach out and see if I can get a definitive answer on this.

with a date on it?

i thought by ivdp rules it's illegal to put a date on a ruby. (or did you mean lbv?)

but constantino isn't a label that comes to mind as something that should be faked due to the fact it does't realy sell for a premium compared to other labels

[Andy Velebil]

with a date on it?

i thought by ivdp rules it's illegal to put a date on a ruby. (or did you mean lbv?)

but constantino isn't a label that comes to mind as something that should be faked due to the fact it does't realy sell for a premium compared to other labels

Don't follow you as to the "date on it" comment??

[g-man]

with a date on it?

i thought by ivdp rules it's illegal to put a date on a ruby. (or did you mean lbv?)

but constantino isn't a label that comes to mind as something that should be faked due to the fact it does't realy sell for a premium compared to other labels

Don't follow you as to the "date on it" comment??

i think the ivdp rules state that if it's marked Ruby

you're not allowed to have a date like 1927 on it

[Andy Velebil]

with a date on it?

i thought by ivdp rules it's illegal to put a date on a ruby. (or did you mean lbv?)

but constantino isn't a label that comes to mind as something that should be faked due to the fact it does't realy sell for a premium compared to other labels

Don't follow you as to the "date on it" comment??

i think the ivdp rules state that if it's marked Ruby

you're not allowed to have a date like 1927 on it

Well all vp is a Ruby and it has a date.

[DRT]

i think the ivdp rules state that if it's marked Ruby

you're not allowed to have a date like 1927 on it

There is no point trying to retrospectively apply today's IVDP rules to labels that were produced decades ago.

Personally, I think there is insufficient evidence for anyone to make a definitive claim that this bottle is anything other than what the seller claims it to be. I think the bottle looks genuine, the label looks genuine, it is probably vintage port (not a colheita) and is an ex-cellar release which is why it has a selo over the top of the capsule.

The only thing that I think doesn't fit is that the selo appears to be from a time that is two or three decades later than the seller's aunt claims that her husband was given the bottle. A slight confusion in the aunt's recollection is far more likely than any speculation that this is a fake bottle.

[Glenn E.]

Personally, I think there is insufficient evidence for anyone to make a definitive claim that this bottle is anything other than what the seller claims it to be. I think the bottle looks genuine, the label looks genuine, it is probably vintage port (not a colheita) and is an ex-cellar release which is why it has a selo over the top of the capsule.

The only thing that I think doesn't fit is that the selo appears to be from a time that is two or three decades later than the seller's aunt claims that her husband was given the bottle. A slight confusion in the aunt's recollection is far more likely than any speculation that this is a fake bottle.

+1

This looks like a perfectly genuine bottle to me. It is in all likelihood a Colheita, not a Vintage Port, the label's "vintage" notwithstanding. I believe that I have bottles in my cellar labeled "Vintage Reserve" or something similar that are most definitely what we now call Colheitas.

As Derek said, the only oddity in this case is the story about when it was received. And that's probably just an error of memory.