Taylor’s Kingsman Edition Very Old Tawny

[Doggett]

Just 700 bottles of this. I am a sucker for good packaging and this looks quite impressive. I hope the port is as lovey, I further hope that I get to taste it and have a forlorn hope of getting one.

https://www.taylor.pt/en/port-wine/kingsman-edition

[JacobH]

I hope anyone who buys one doesn’t use that glass for drinking it!

Whilst I love inappropriate glasses; I don’t think I’d use that one on anything more precious than a 10-year-old-tawny...

[Glenn E.]

This looks really nice, but in classic Taylor fashion I expect it to be horribly overpriced for a 500ml bottle. Has anyone see a price yet?

[slateshalehead]

Interestingly enough, I first heard about this not through Taylor Fladgate's social media channels, but from a cinephile friend's posting. I personally haven't seen this kind of a partnership before, and I think it is an interesting way for a port house to try to reach younger demographics. It almost reminds me of Diageo's partnership with Game of Thrones for branding on their scotches. I hope that, if this kind of partnership continues for port producers, they open it up to more affordable/accessible port varieties, to perhaps entice a new generation of drinkers

[Andy Velebil]

Interestingly enough, I first heard about this not through Taylor Fladgate's social media channels, but from a cinephile friend's posting. I personally haven't seen this kind of a partnership before, and I think it is an interesting way for a port house to try to reach younger demographics. It almost reminds me of Diageo's partnership with Game of Thrones for branding on their scotches. I hope that, if this kind of partnership continues for port producers, they open it up to more affordable/accessible port varieties, to perhaps entice a new generation of drinkers

The younger demographics probably isn't going to be able to afford this. But if it spurs interest in other types of Ports...

[JacobH]

Interestingly enough, I first heard about this not through Taylor Fladgate's social media channels, but from a cinephile friend's posting. I personally haven't seen this kind of a partnership before, and I think it is an interesting way for a port house to try to reach younger demographics. It almost reminds me of Diageo's partnership with Game of Thrones for branding on their scotches. I hope that, if this kind of partnership continues for port producers, they open it up to more affordable/accessible port varieties, to perhaps entice a new generation of drinkers

It certainly could work. In some senses it is surprising that considering the a reasonably-healthy market for British nostalgia it hasn’t been tried much in recent years.

I am also struck that TFP places so much emphasis on expense and luxury. For example, when was the last time they had a major product launch that was not something at the premium or super-premium end (e.g. the Scion, the Taylor Colheitas, WoW, the Yeatman etc.)? Perhaps Croft Pink, a decade ago? This is quite a different approach from the Symingtons where there is a mixture of new releases at different ranges (e.g. Graham’s № 5 White; the new Graham LBVs etc. as well as the Graham’s Stone Terraces or the Vesuvio Capela). I’m not saying they have got it wrong, but I am intrigued by the approach.

Also, might I just record that I think “Very Old Tawny” is a really, really naff name? It reminds me of Very Special Cognac, which is, of course, the cheapest.

[PCM]

This looks really nice, but in classic Taylor fashion I expect it to be horribly overpriced for a 500ml bottle. Has anyone see a price yet?

Yes, I have: both Vinho Grandes Escolhas and Vinho do Porto Vintage Blog say that the recommended price will be €2900.00 per bottle!!

[Doggett]

This looks really nice, but in classic Taylor fashion I expect it to be horribly overpriced for a 500ml bottle. Has anyone see a price yet?

Yes, I have: both Vinho Grandes Escolhas and Vinho do Porto Vintage Blog say that the recommended price will be €2900.00 per bottle!!

Oh...I thought it would be prohibitively expensive and not offering value for the contents. I think I might get two at that price.

[Glenn E.]

This looks really nice, but in classic Taylor fashion I expect it to be horribly overpriced for a 500ml bottle. Has anyone see a price yet?

Yes, I have: both Vinho Grandes Escolhas and Vinho do Porto Vintage Blog say that the recommended price will be €2900.00 per bottle!!

Only one order of magnitude overpriced?

shocked.gif (206.99 KiB) Viewed 12836 times

Adrian's following along with all the worst ideas from the computer gaming industry. In this case, making product that's only suitable for the whales. He's probably desperately trying to figure out how to implement loot boxes for Port right about now.

[JacobH]

Adrian's following along with all the worst ideas from the computer gaming industry. In this case, making product that's only suitable for the whales. He's probably desperately trying to figure out how to implement loot boxes for Port right about now.

You can see the temptation, though, considering the potential profit margins. I presume with 700 half-litre bottles being sold they have made something like a single pipe of this. I have no idea what the typical retail mark-ups are for these sorts of wine but assuming they don’t exceed 50% that would give them over €1M in revenue...

[slateshalehead]

Adrian's following along with all the worst ideas from the computer gaming industry. In this case, making product that's only suitable for the whales. He's probably desperately trying to figure out how to implement loot boxes for Port right about now.

You can see the temptation, though, considering the potential profit margins. I presume with 700 half-litre bottles being sold they have made something like a single pipe of this. I have no idea what the typical retail mark-ups are for these sorts of wine but assuming they don’t exceed 50% that would give them over €1M in revenue...

That is if they sell. I would think that, if they branded US bottles of an LBV with a special movie label and marked it up maybe $1-5, they'd be better off in the long run thanks to a larger potential buying pool. How many of these Kingsman custom decanters will be collecting dust in stores/the warehouse over the next few years? There are only so many people anymore willing to spend that kind of money on port, and those people are likely less impacted by the whole movie gimmick

[JacobH]

That is if they sell. I would think that, if they branded US bottles of an LBV with a special movie label and marked it up maybe $1-5, they'd be better off in the long run thanks to a larger potential buying pool. How many of these Kingsman custom decanters will be collecting dust in stores/the warehouse over the next few years? There are only so many people anymore willing to spend that kind of money on port, and those people are likely less impacted by the whole movie gimmick

I assume that, following the Scion, they have quite a good idea as to how many of these types of things they will sell. Of course they aren’t really aiming at mainstream wine drinkers, rather the sort of people who might buy a bottle of the Louis XIII Rémy Martin for a similar price, which I guess includes a lot of bars and restaurants that want a fancy drinks trolley of expensive-looking bottles and people who like collecting drinks (c.f. the premium Scotch market).

I guess the question is whether they think it would be easier to shift 700 bottles of this or 400,000 bottles of a special LBV (assuming a markup of $5 and 50% margin for the retailer)?

[Axel P]

Does it matter if you sell these? I believe the PR value is off the books. So why bother with pocket money?

[Axel P]

Awaiting my sample...

[Doggett]

Awaiting my sample...

Aren’t we all!

[Axel P]

tpf.jpg (256.5 KiB) Viewed 12588 times

Arrived today... so did this:

Kingsman.jpg (42.33 KiB) Viewed 12587 times

[Doggett]

The films are fun... the second one has a good scene or two at Berry Bros and Rudd (that have named one of their tasting rooms the Kingsman room), but it am sure the port will be more enjoyable!

[JacobH]

Is anyone else troubled by the suggestion that an ultra-English establishment like the Kingsman would be drinking a tawny rather than a Vintage Port?

[Andy Velebil]

Is anyone else troubled by the suggestion that an ultra-English establishment like the Kingsman would be drinking a tawny rather than a Vintage Port?

Times are a changing...

[PCM]

This looks really nice, but in classic Taylor fashion I expect it to be horribly overpriced for a 500ml bottle. Has anyone see a price yet?

Yes, I have: both Vinho Grandes Escolhas and Vinho do Porto Vintage Blog say that the recommended price will be €2900.00 per bottle!!

Today (until 23.59) you can buy one (only online) at Estado Liquido in Portugal with a 10% discount and I assume shipping costs are much less than €290.00

[Axel P]

Kingsman.jpg (66.73 KiB) Viewed 12247 times

http://worldofport.de/Wein/Wein20-11%20EN.html

[JacobH]

Thanks, Axel. Have you got any idea where the wines that have gone into this blend came from? Are they Taylor’s stocks or a recent acquisition?

[Axel P]

No idea

[JacobH]

Taylor’s have just advertised a new very old tawny, this time a 1896 colheita. Rather than create a new thread, I thought I would bump this one.

It is accompanied by a glossy website.

I do feel a little be uneasy about the advertising, though, as I do with many of these products. For example, saying “the launch of a wine as old, valuable and unique as this occurs only a handful of times in a generation” would carry more weight if it were not the third such wine to be released by them in a decade. I also remained troubled by the refreshing issue. They say 18 pipes were laid down in 1896, of which two remain. That’s an evaporation level of about 1.75% per annum, I think. I guess that could just about work. But is it really the case that they have only refreshed on a like-for-like basis (and not drawn any stocks) during that time?

[Andy Velebil]

The 1896 SHT should be its own thread (mods?).

I had forgotten until Eric I reminded me, this is the Krohn stock. They had a red and white from the same year when TFP bought them.

They have to be topped off with something as you can’t top off something that old with the same thing from a similar barrel. Well, I guess you could but what would be the point. However, You could store the same vintage in a keg (or similar) for example and it wouldn’t evaporate but after time it would also be substantially different. No clue what that would do if added to the old barrels.

Regardless, I have no issues with this, so long as the end product is good. Otherwise we’re all gonna be eating a spoon full of old port-molasses.

[JacobH]

Regardless, I have no issues with this, so long as the end product is good. Otherwise we’re all gonna be eating a spoon full of old port-molasses.

I have no difficulties with the wine-making principle. It’s just the advertising I don’t like. If they were always topped up with something newer than only about 10% of the wine will be from 1896. Feels a bit of a stretch to say this is a “single harvest”! It reminds me a bit of those sherries where the foundation date of the solera is give on the label...

[Andy Velebil]

Do keep in mind evaporation slow as it ages. So the rate is not constant for 100+ years

[JacobH]

That’s fair enough, although the figures I have seen suggest starting at about 3% and then falling to 1%. I’m not sure that I have read it stopping altogether after a certain point which would be necessary for the majority of the wine in the barrel to remain over 100+ years without topping up from elsewhere.

I guess it boils down to this: if a wine is labelled as coming from a “single harvest” in 1896, shouldn’t it all come from that single harvest? If that is not possible due to evaporation, then it should have a different name.

[JacobH]

According to The Drinks Business they are releasing 1,700 bottles of this at a RRP of £3,950, giving each pipe a gross retail value of around £3.35M. I am sure it would be unfair to speculate what sort of quality of Quinta one could purchase for that sum

[MigSU]

According to The Drinks Business they are releasing 1,700 bottles of this at a RRP of £3,950, giving each pipe a gross retail value of around £3.35M. I am sure it would be unfair to speculate what sort of quality of Quinta one could purchase for that sum

Do you mean an actual Quinta?

[jdaw1]

We asked Dirk Niepoort this question straight up, and he said that the types of grapes you need to make a great ruby Port and a great tawny Port are different. You might be able to use one to make the other, but it would not be using the grapes to reach their best potential.

His answer was long and complex, but at some basic level the main difference seems to be that ruby Ports need color and tannins, while tawny Ports need acidity and sugar.

1896 was, reportedly, a very great year for vintage.

[Andy Velebil]

I know people who've had this when Krohn's owned the casks and they gave it 99-100 points. So unless TFP screwed it up, which I am 100% confident did not happen, this will be a remarkable tawny.

That is a lot of bottles. I wonder how much was left in cask, if any?

[JacobH]

I assume the bottles are 50cl? Otherwise I can't reconcile any of the numbers. I also wonder how much gets sent out as samples? I get the impression, which might be wrong, that they feel they have to distribute them really quite widely to get the level of publicity they want.

[Andy Velebil]

75c per this approved label for it. Click the printable version tab to see the pics.
https://ttbonline.gov/colasonline/view ... 2001000211

[JacobH]

75c per this approved label for it. Click the printable version tab to see the pics.
https://ttbonline.gov/colasonline/view ... 2001000211

Hmm...I guess when they talk about there being 2 casks they aren’t referring to 550l pipes? Otherwise they wouldn’t have 1,700 bottles’ worth to bottle (wastage etc. notwithstanding).

[Glenn E.]

I have a vague memory that Krohn sold these in a 2-pack (one white, one tawny) right before they were purchased for something like 8000 EUR, so offering just the tawny for £3,950 seems like a very TFP thing to do.

[Glenn E.]

75c per this approved label for it. Click the printable version tab to see the pics.
https://ttbonline.gov/colasonline/view ... 2001000211

Hmm...I guess when they talk about there being 2 casks they aren’t referring to 550l pipes? Otherwise they wouldn’t have 1,700 bottles’ worth to bottle (wastage etc. notwithstanding).

I've never seen them (but I think Andy has?), but from what people told me all of the casks were smaller than the standard 550l pipes. But I was also under the impression that there were more than 2 casks (of each - 1863, 1896, and 1896 white), so it's possible I'm confusing a couple of different "old port" stories.

[nac]

Taylor’s have just advertised a new very old tawny, this time a 1896 colheita. Rather than create a new thread, I thought I would bump this one.

Apparently 1700 bottles being released with an RRP of £3950.

[nac]

Have just been offered a bottle of the 1896 Single Harvest by C&B. £2,900 in bond (so about £3,500 delivered - which is a fair bit below the RRP). Declined their kind offer.