2005 En primeur

[uncle tom]

Fine & Rare Wines are listing quite a stash of '05's - prices exclude both VAT and duty, so much too high for my liking.

Croft Quinta da Roeda (Hlv) 147

Croft Quinta da Roeda (6xBt) 75

Fonseca Guimaraens (6xBt) 85

Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira (6xBt) 130

Quinta de Roriz (6xBt) 126

Quinta de Roriz (Mg) 248

Quinta de Terra Feita (6xBt) 90

Quinta de Terra Feita (Hlv) 176

Quinta do Panascal (Hlv) 166

Quinta do Panascal (6xBt) 85

Quinta do Vesuvio (6xBt) 160

Quinta do Vesuvio (3xMg) 160

Taylor's Quinta de Vargellas (Hlv) 209

Taylor's Quinta de Vargellas (6xBt) 104

Note the mags of Vesuvio - a first, I think!

Tom

[KillerB]

Well, just looking at Terra Feita at £15 per bottle, then adding tax and VAT puts it up beyond the retail price of the 1999s in Majestic (£17.99), so it's hardly run to the shippers time. As for halves at just under the price of bottles - no ta.

[Frederick Blais]

Well, just looking at Terra Feita at £15 per bottle, then adding tax and VAT puts it up beyond the retail price of the 1999s in Majestic (£17.99), so it's hardly run to the shippers time. As for halves at just under the price of bottles - no ta.

Still it is 50% cheaper than Canada I think I'm moving to England, I'd save so much on Port that I could afford it

I've seen magnums of Vesuvio in 2000(in my cellar) my guess is that they release some each year.

[Conky]

I've never understood this En Primeur lark. It guarantees you get a case or two in pristine condition from the manufacturer at a bloated price. This usually being an item that is never hard to find over the forthcoming years. Then you have to store it for 20years and watch the price often drop.

If I'm missing something in my Port Knowledge, I'd be grateful of a hand???

Alan

[Frederick Blais]

The En primeur system is coming from the Bordeaux region that invented it in the 70's to counter the lack of founds to repair the vineyards and installation.

You want to sell the wines earlier and cheaper than the market price so people are buying it. You get the money now for the wines you'll give in 2 years, so you can use the money right now.

It used to be a great value for the customers but I don't think it is right now. For Bordeaux, it is mainly a way to speculate. As for Port, well the price is not increasing, so there is no need for Primeur, especially that they release it like only 6 months before it hits the market (non-sense!). Yes if you buy them now they will be cheaper than in 6 months on the market, though a year or two later, there will be a sell-out for the surplus(another non-sense).

[Conky]

Thanks Fred.

So does anyone have anything good to say about this system and how its working now???

If there isn't much good news, how do they keep it going? Is it just because its an additional way of selling for anyone daft enough to use it?

Alan

[KillerB]

I've bought Bordeaux En Primeur many times but would not consider it for Port, unless I was getting a pipe for a child. I know we shouldn't make them smoke...

[DRT]

Does anyone want to accept a bet against AHB having a case of Vesuvio 05 plus a few of those Mags En Premeur?

Derek

[Conky]

And if he has, will he explain the benefits coz we're running a bit short of them on the Port side of things!

[DRT]

There is no benefit to be had other than to feed his OVD

Derek

[Conky]

Go on...Whats OVD?

[Andy Velebil]

Go on...Whats OVD?

i was think the same thing

[Conky]

I've just spotted V is by C on the keyboard.

Was it OCD - Obssessive Compulsive Disorder?

Which still doesn't make much sense, but at least its a known abbreviation.

[Alex Bridgeman]

OCD is a good guess at what Derek is referring to. OVD is Obsessive Vesuvio Disorder and is Derek demonstrating that he is jealous of my Vesuvio vertical and the fact that Vesuvio makes up 50% (or whatever figure is actually correct) of my port cellar.

Interestingly, I have already spoken to my pet wine merchant about the Vesuvio '05s and have told them that I can see absolutely no point in buying any of these en primeur. I will almost certainly buy some when shipped but will wait for the discounts before buying more than just the one case.

There are only two benefits to the consumer of buying en primeur:
(1) to secure wines with pristine provenance that might otherwise to hard to get hold of in the second hand market. The best current example would be Vargellas Vinha Velha.
(2) to secure wines at an advantageous price - there are still some examples of when this might be true. Taylor and Vesuvio '94 come to mind here.

However, I think the en primeur market has gone a bit daft if we are now being offered Roeda and Panascal. Why on earth would we want to buy these before bottling and shipping? I also note with some mild interest that all of the wines bar Vesuvio - which the Symingtons have always offered en primeur - are from the Taylor stable. I wonder if this is now a deliberate policy of their's?

There is also one other point to note about en primeur offers. Often a merchant is leant on heavily by the producer to buy from the producer en primeur. If the producer has more demand that product available then buying this way - even in relatively low key years like 2005 - might be the only way the merchant can secure the volumes of product he wants in the top years. And if the merchant has to buy en primeur then he will surely offer the wines to his customers on the same terms.

Alex

[uncle tom]

In January last year, I bought a dozen Vesuvio '94 from Christies for £260 - after adding BP and delivery, that works out at £25/bottle - slightly less than the en primeur price ten years previously, after duty & VAT is paid.

I don't think that was a stellar bargain - perhaps one bid below the norm.

Roriz and Senhora da Ribeira are both marketed by the Sym's. Roriz is owned by the Van Zeller's, but run by the Symingtons, and S da R is one of the Sym's Dow quintas.

Tom

[Michael M.]

The only shop in my area (180 km) I know offering en primeur is in Amsterdam/The Netherlands. Look here http://www.tonovermars.nl/Vintage_Port_ ... _2005.html

The prices in general are rather cheap.

A price of 25 GBP for Vesuvio 1994 would be to light some candles in a church. The best price I Know is 63 EUR.

BTW: I purchased last weekend 2 bottles of Martinez La Eira Velha 1994 for 24 EUR/bottle. Although additional shipping costs of 32 EUR I am very happy about 40 EUR/bottle.

Cheers
Yours Cruz Ruby

[KillerB]

Ahh, we know of Ton Overmars. Our Dutch correspondents StevieCage and the Rootses often mention this shop. I really must take a peek next time I'm in Amsterdam.

[uncle tom]

Michael,

I don't have any Vesuvio '94 to spare, but next time you're in the UK, I could sort you a bottle of Vesuvio '00 for £25 - or a case of 6 Vesuvio '96's for £80.

- I'll even throw in a candle!

Tom

[Michael M.]

Tom,

a good reason to visit UK for the first time . Or, instead I would have to wait until my last day on earth. I am shure I would find those UK-prices in heaven too .

In my area there are some british NATO troups. I think I will have to ask, if there are some Port geeks, purchasing in the UK.

[uncle tom]

In my area there are some british NATO troups. I think I will have to ask, if there are some Port geeks, purchasing in the UK

Port is very much part of the British Officer's mess tradition - the regular soldiers usually drink lager...

Tom

[Conky]

Now there's a Port I've not heard anyone talk about before. The Martinez La Eira Velha. Thats the 'Not a Declaration Year' Port, isn't it, like the Fonseca Guimaraens and other types.
Any views on that one? We've nothing in the Tasting Notes Section?

Michael, have you any plans to try one soon?

Alan

[Michael M.]

Alan,

the two bottles are destined for the cellar. But I had the same idea as you obviously had. Curious: In the same year Martinez VP 1994 and SQVP Quinta da Eira Velha 1994- all the more as Martinez VP contains the grapes of Quinta La Eira Velha. I do have the information, that James Suckling rated the Martinez VP 1994 points 95 and the Quinta La Eira Velha 97 points . Mr. Mayson says in his book, that in certain years Quinta La Eira Velha could be outstandig. I also have a case of 12 of Martinez VP 1994. If I try the first one I will report. There are some threads from StevieCage and others on winespectator forum. For instance you' ll have a look here http://forums.winespectator.com/eve/for ... #192105263

Had this evening Niepoort Senior Tawny- yummy. Goto sleep lucky.

[uncle tom]

I've got a case of Eira Velha '94 - well reviewed by Mayson - but have yet to open a bottle.

My steadily expanding database of known vintage ports - currently standing 1438 entries - has a bit of a question mark over Martinez and Eira Velha.

My issue is whether Martinez has sometimes been producing a blend AND an Eira Velha SQ in the same year - I have references to both in the years 2000, 1994, 1978 & 1975, but it's possible that they are one and the same.

- Can anyone enlighten me?

Tom

[Conky]

Tom,

your usually good at this sort of question. Is it unusual to make the VP and the 'lesser' vintage Port in the same year?

And if its not, I wonder what brought it on that year with this Martinez?

If Tom struggles, anyone else?

Alan

[Frederick Blais]

It is very unsual. Well only a few companies are doing it. Fonseca is releasing Qta da Panascal, Niepoort is releasing Secudum and Ramos Pinto Qta da Ervamoira. The most consistent of doing so over the years has been Fonseca. Close of doing so is Dow's that release 2 SQVP when not releasing classic VP.

[KillerB]

I can confirm that the Martinez 1994 exists as I have had it and it is truly lovely, if a little on the young side. Bman, Stevie Cage and I had it at an off-line in London whilst England were piling on the runs against Australia. This was the same day that we were sieving Croft 1945 through our teeth.

[uncle tom]

I have now established that BOTH Eira Velha and the Martinez blend WERE produced in 1994, 1997 & 2000. Before that, I am still uncertain.

What is odd is that I can find virtually no evidence of a 2003. There is just one dealer (in Denmark) listing the blend - but with a photo of the 2000, so it could be an error.

I looked up their website (which has a rather nice intro - http://www.martinez.pt) and there is also no mention of a 2003 for either the Blend or Eira Velha

Anyone come across them?

Tom

[Michael M.]

Tom,
according to a german website, Quinta da Eira Velha was also produced in 1992.

Does anyone know anything about da Eira Velha 1992?

Did not find anything about 2003 excepting the danish website you mentioned. Interesting prices for the Martinez 1985 and 1987 imo. Anyone planing a trip to Kopenhagen and visiting Germany after this? Hey, it's bally beautiful here!

[Michael M.]

Just now found some TNs about Martinez VP and da Eira Velha VP here http://www.wine-pages.com/forum/tnotes/fortif02.htm Notes are from 2002.

[Conky]

Interesting. As you'd expect the VP got better write ups.

My sentimental favourite, the 85 got another thumbs up as well. I'm looking forward to being re-aquainted with this one, when Alex brings me 4 bottles up in September.

[uncle tom]

That fits with my records to date - Martinez declared 1991 as a blend, but called 1992 for Eira Velha - very much in line with the Symington houses, and in keeping with the widely practised routine of declaring big vintages for the blend, but good lesser ones for the SQ.

That leaves '78 and '75 out on a limb - did they double declare, then stop doing so only to resume a few years later..?

I have records of a Martinez blend for '85, and an Eira Velha for '87 - but no records for either between '78 and '85..

Tom

[DRT]

According to Suckling's book Q d Eira Velha was not sold through Martinez until 1987.

The 1978 vintage was marketed through Cockburn and prior to that all of the Quinta's production was sold to Ferreira.

Derek

[RonnieRoots]

I've tasted the 2003 Martinez (blend), and didn't like it. It was full of VA. Could have been a bad bottle of course.

The 1994 Martinez is a great port. I have about a case, but would love to have more.

[jdaw1]

Ahh, we know of Ton Overmars.

Ton Overmars’ port list, for those interested.

[Conky]

Ahh, we know of Ton Overmars.

Ton Overmars’ port list, for those interested.

I though that was quite a limited selection. And when you take into account Michael's point that it is his only worthwhile vendor for 100+miles, thats quite depressing.
Like when the Canadian lads go on about their crazy importing policies and resulting prices, or the US lads struggle for Aged VP, what we take for granted in the UK should be celebrated.

Alan.

[Michael M.]

In Austria Niepoort VP 2005 is out- for 58 EUR incl. taxes. Any thoughts?

If you love (like I do) the portuguese language:
http://copod3.blogspot.com/2007_07_01_archive.html
http://vinhodacasa.blogspot.com/

Cheers Michael

[uncle tom]

If you think it will be worth twice that amount when it is ready to drink, then fine - I've seen no notes on it.

Unless it is a truly exceptional wine, I would say that is overpriced.

Tom

[Andy Velebil]

Tom, I've tried it and its very good..but that is too much money IMHO.

[RonnieRoots]

I'm afraid that -given its release price- it's a very decent price. I've seen what it should cost in Dutch stores, and that will be between 70 and 80 euro.

The steep price raise of Niepoort in the last couple of years makes me a bit sad. But I guess he has a large demand and only a small production, so he's entitled to let the market do its job... Personally, I don't think I'll be buying this year.

[RonnieRoots]

Ahh, we know of Ton Overmars.

Ton Overmars’ port list, for those interested.

I though that was quite a limited selection. And when you take into account Michael's point that it is his only worthwhile vendor for 100+miles, thats quite depressing.
Like when the Canadian lads go on about their crazy importing policies and resulting prices, or the US lads struggle for Aged VP, what we take for granted in the UK should be celebrated.

Alan.

Alan, what's limited about the selection? He has a wide range of producers, and vintages going back to the '70's. Did you view both pages? He is, BTW not the only worthwhile vendor, there are others, also specialed traders in older vintages, so we have quite a good choice. He is, however, unique in having such a broad range, in showing and selling all through internet, and in having very decent pricing on most ports (only Fonseca tends to be overpriced).

[Conky]

Ronnie,

Being an idiot, your quite right, I didn't see the second page. That did, obviously, show more, and I stand corrected. To a point.
Jump on winesearcher and choose any VP you care to name, and 90% of the time, its ready for you, in the UK, with acceptable P&P, even if its the other side of the country. I just wish I could afford to use this facility more.

Alan

[RonnieRoots]

True. The availability of (especially older) VP's in the UK is far better than here. I'm sure it has something to do with Brittain's long history with port. Also, the number of Dutch merchants that sell over the internet, and make use of tools like winesearcher is very much limited, which is a pity.

[Michael M.]

58 EUR is- according to my experience- the best price for a Niepoort VP in whole continental Europe. Compared to today prices for a top notch VP it seems to be worthy. Fonseca and Taylor come out in Germany for about 75 EUR.

You GBs can be lucky having a long tradition in buying port and having the possibility buying VPs ready to drink at decent prices. I would be interested if you do not worry about the storing conditions of theese bottles. 10 years might not be a big problem if not properly stored. But what about 20 years and +? . Don't you worry to get a "challenge cup"?

Tom's arithmetic certainly is not easy to dissmis. I will continue. Peak in 15 years, opposite costs: 6%/year, 90 % in 15 years, price for Niepoort in 15 years will be 110,20 EUR at least? For me, this don't appears overly high. And the storing conditions would be known.

I just wonder, if Niepoort VP 2000 for 60 EUR would be a better buy.

[RonnieRoots]

You would have to compare the price to that of older, also good Niepoort VP's like 1994 and 1987 and then decide for yourself if you feel it's worth it.

[Michael M.]

Niepoort 1987 is about 100 EUR in Germany. 1992 I bought in 1996 for 20 EUR is now at more than 60 EUR. I did not taste the 2005 so far. But according to several TNs there can be no doubt for me, that 58 EUR is not a bad price.

Cheers
Michael

[RonnieRoots]

Niepoort 1987 is about 100 EUR in Germany.

Ouch! You can still buy it under 50 at Ton Overmars.
But I agree that 58 for the 2005 is a good price, I doubt if you'll find it any cheaper somewhere else.

[Michael M.]

Niepoort 1987 is about 100 EUR in Germany.

Ouch! You can still buy it under 50 at Ton Overmars.
But I agree that 58 for the 2005 is a good price, I doubt if you'll find it any cheaper somewhere else.

I see, inevitable to visit Amsterdam soon.

BTW: I purchased some weeks ago a bottle of Niepoort 1983 in Wolsum, slight signs of seepage but for under 50 EUR no doubt left . I am already looking forward to try this one. I would also be interested in some more 1997 VP, but articles about this (VA, leakers) do not really encourage. In my cellar I found an additional leaker. Perhaps time for a Niepoort 1997 VP leakers-reduction-party . Leaking problems always with the 0,75l bottles, not with the magnums.