11 October 2011 - Dow, Fonseca, Graham and Taylor

[Alex Bridgeman]

On 11th October 2011, timed to coincide with the end of Roy Hersh's harvest tour the previous weekend to allow anyone on the tour to return via London and stop off for this tasting, we will be holding a matrix tasting of the wines from 1963, 1966, 1970 and 1977 from Dow, Fonseca, Graham and Taylor. This is (almost) a repeat of the first offline that we organised in London in October 2005 when we tasted the Fonseca, Graham, Taylor and Sandeman from 1963, 1966 and 1970.

The venue is to be the Milennium Room in the RAF Club; cost will be approximately £220 per person less a discount for any port supplied for the event. Note that this is only a rough estimate of the cost of the event and will very much depend on the cost of the bottles we acquire.

The table is now full. Any late additions to the attendee list will need to be waitlisted.

Attendees
1 Cynthia Jensen
2 Giles Wigoder
3 Alex Bridgeman
4 Rob Coombes
5 Guest of Rob Coombes
6 Axel Probst
7 CMA Gee
8 Guest of CMA Gee
9 Derek Turnbull
10 Julian Wiseman
11 Andy Velebil
12 Tom Archer
13 Phil W
14 Killer B

Alex

[jdaw1]

Draft of placemats.

• People as in first post at 12:00 Thu 13 Jan 2011, so
  • ”“NN,
  • ”“RAH,
  • +SRG,
  • +HEG;
• Subsequent people changes:
  • ”“RLC (on 9th May),
  • ”“CSD (on 9th May).
• α63 β63 γ63 δ63, ε66 ζ66 η66 θ66, ι70 κ70 λ70 μ70, ν77 ξ77 ο77 Ï€77.
• The observant will note use of the new feature, BackgroundTextsGlasses, coded for this purpose. (See Tall sans-serif font with good digits for discussion about typefaces.)
• Sixty-four pre-pour sheets: T77 G77 F77 D77, T70 G70 F70 D70, T66 G66 F66 D66, T63 G63 F63 D63; Ï€77 ο77 ξ77 ν77, μ70 λ70 κ70 ι70, θ66 η66 ζ66 ε66, δ63 γ63 β63 α63; T77 G77 F77 D77, T70 G70 F70 D70, T66 G66 F66 D66, T63 G63 F63 D63; Ï€77 ο77 ξ77 ν77, μ70 λ70 κ70 ι70, θ66 η66 ζ66 ε66, δ63 γ63 β63 α63. What is needed rather depends on how the shuffling will be done see next bullet.
• ∃ Decanter labels, of all thirty-two obvious types. What might happen is that four decanters are labelled D77 F77 G77 T77, and filled. One person, with others not watching, then staples over the decanter labels four business cards not marked with a wine, and shuffles the decanters. A different person then staples over those the business cards ν77 ξ77 ο77 Ï€77. These are then pre-poured, and the triple-thick decanter labels put aside. The process is repeated with the other vintages. At the end, the stapled cards can be pulled apart to reveal what is hidden behind ‟Ï€77”, etc.

In other threads I have tended to post on every change to the draft placemats, to alert to that change those who might care. With 295 days until this tasting, that intensity of new posts might be premature. Instead this post will be edited. New-post notifications of changes will start not later than the first of the month of the tasting.

[Ghandih]

Hello Alex,
This sounds right up my street, and no mistake. As you observe, I may even be able to supply a bottle, which would be an exciting new step for me, rather than having to rely on others' generosity. Please could I reserve a place in the 2nd XIV?
Ghandih

[Ghandih]

...and, having made Mrs G aware of the tasting, she has expressed keenness and excitement - could we reserve her a slot, too? I believe she has her own log in, but has forgotten her login and password. If any admin folk could help us get over that particular snag, we would be very grateful.

Ghandhih

[jdaw1]

Start at Helen Gandy SCP-DFO.

[RAYC]

I would definitely have a +1 if it were starting to look like there were sufficient demand for a larger tasting.

Cheers

Rob

[Alex Bridgeman]

Please note I have updated the first post with a list of attendees.

Alex

[Alex Bridgeman]

Roy has just advised me that he will not be able to visit the UK on his way back from the Harvest Tour this year. The attendee list has been updated to reflect this and to add Simon and Helen and confirmed attendees.

[Axel P]

Flights booked, nothing to come in between me and this fabulous lineup.

Axel

[RAYC]

If a waitlist develops, please feel free to keep my "guest" below others from the forum.

I do have someone who would certainly be interested if the tasting were expanded to 28 (or if one of the 14 dropped out and no one else stepped up), but should be offered to others on the forum first.

[marc j.]

No worries...

[Alex Bridgeman]

Sign me up!

Marc

Does this mean that you are on the Harvest Trip and planning to travel back to the US via London?

Alex

[marc j.]

Alex,

Actually my wife and I were think of visiting the U.K. in the fall and this tasting falls pretty close to the dates that we were considering. At this point we can still adjust our vacation dates to coincide with the tasting. She's not as avid a Port fan as myself so she wouldn't be participating in the tasting (hence no +1.)

Marc

[Deleted_User_1]

In order to give plenty of notice I must withdraw from this event now.

[Chris Doty]

I'm afraid I must also withdraw from this event, as I imagine I'll be unable to get out of NYC this week.

Shame -- seems like it'll be a grand time!

[PhilW]

If you do expand this to 28, or a place becomes available, I'd love to join you for this event.

Phil.

[KillerB]

Count me in as first reserve. I have a Graham's 1977.

[RAYC]

a moment of panic as a "save the date" for an event i must attend popped up for 13th October. phew...

[jdaw1]

∃ Decanter labels, of all thirty-two obvious types. What might happen is that four decanters are labelled D77 F77 G77 T77, and filled. One person, with others not watching, then staples over the decanter labels four business cards not marked with a wine, and shuffles the decanters. A different person then staples over those the business cards ν77 ξ77 ο77 Ï€77. These are then pre-poured, and the triple-thick decanter labels put aside. The process is repeated with the other vintages. At the end, the stapled cards can be pulled apart to reveal what is hidden behind ‟Ï€77”, etc.

Comment on this proposed protocol would be welcomed.

[DRT]

It looks good to me. But making this work effectively will severely restrict the number of people who can be present during decanting. I would suggest a maximum and a minimum of two.

[jdaw1]

Not at all. Decant bottles in groups of four, by vintage, into matching decanters. The Third Man to do stapling and shuffling, and then, one-in-one-out, The Fourth Man to do same again.

Indeed, in case the decanting people noticed some slight variation in the decanters or the labels, it would then be better if a different team, at the other end of the room, did the pre-pouring.

That could be as many as six people, properly Brigadier General’d.

[DRT]

But making this work effectively will severely restrict the number of people who can be present during decanting.

I said nothing of pre-pouring or distribution.

The people in the room during decanting will know what the wines are when they enter the decanters. So, DecantingPerson1 will decant 4 bottles of 1977 and see that one is significantly lighter than the others, and one is almost black. He will know which is which, even when they have been blinded.

The fewer people who have that inside knowledge the better.

[jdaw1]

Fine, agreed.

Though that problem is difficult to avoid without non-drinking staff, whatever the protocol. (Indeed, I recall a similar advantage, many moons ago, enabling me to identify a 1980 Hutcheson.)

Far worse than my previous bottle of H80, though sufficiently similar to be identifiable.

[PhilW]

You could perhaps sufficiently reduce the 'insider knowledge' of the people performing the initial decant, while also increasing the number of people who could be involved without compromising port identities with minor modification to your steps:

1. Source sufficient dark glass bottles (there might be a few suitable old port bottles around somewhere...?), labelled 1,2,3...
2. Label your decanters A,B,C...
3. As pre previous description, create tags with house/year for each port, and equivalent tags labelled 1,2,3... and A,B,C...
4. Group1 decant from original bottles to dark glass bottles (selecting a random numbered bottle and its tag), in each case taking original tag and over-attaching the numeric tag on the name tag
5. Group2 decant from dark glass bottles to decanters (or other bottles), selecting random letter bottle and decanter with appropriate tags, and attach the alphabetic tag over the top of the numeric one.

- Additional notes:
(i) Group1 and Group2 during preparation can be any size, provided no-one is a member of both groups. In fact, the more people in each group, the less chance for any colour comparison by each person decanting multiple bottles.
(ii) Optionally, make the people doing the decanting wear dark sunglasses, to further reduce the colour perception of the port in the funnel during decanting (this would assume you are double-decanting through muslin/whatever, and relying on experience and the cloth rather than visual back-lit sign of first sediment)
(iii) Instead of tags, use envelopes, one inside the other, so any tells on card edges etc are hidden within each step

[DRT]

Optionally, make the people doing the decanting wear dark sunglasses

It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full Pipe of port, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.

[jdaw1]

You could perhaps sufficiently reduce the 'insider knowledge' of the people performing the initial decant, while also increasing the number of people who could be involved without compromising port identities with minor modification to your steps:

1. Source sufficient dark glass bottles (there might be a few suitable old port bottles around somewhere...?), labelled 1,2,3...
2. Label your decanters A,B,C...
3. As pre previous description, create tags with house/year for each port, and equivalent tags labelled 1,2,3... and A,B,C...
4. Group1 decant from original bottles to dark glass bottles (selecting a random numbered bottle and its tag), in each case taking original tag and over-attaching the numeric tag on the name tag
5. Group2 decant from dark glass bottles to decanters (or other bottles), selecting random letter bottle and decanter with appropriate tags, and attach the alphabetic tag over the top of the numeric one.

- Additional notes:
(i) Group1 and Group2 during preparation can be any size, provided no-one is a member of both groups. In fact, the more people in each group, the less chance for any colour comparison by each person decanting multiple bottles.
(ii) Optionally, make the people doing the decanting wear dark sunglasses, to further reduce the colour perception of the port in the funnel during decanting (this would assume you are double-decanting through muslin/whatever, and relying on experience and the cloth rather than visual back-lit sign of first sediment)
(iii) Instead of tags, use envelopes, one inside the other, so any tells on card edges etc are hidden within each step

Oh my: isn’t the current draft of placemats sufficiently complicated?

Please confirm that you want an extra set of decanter labels, distinct from α63 β63 γ63 δ63, and distinct from T63 G63 F63 D63, to act as an intermediate step. But it would be simpler to have four copies of labels ‟63”, no other markers (an no pre-pour sheets). These ‟63”s etc go over (or in an envelope containing) the T63 G63 F63 D63 series. Further copies of the plain-vintage labels can can go over/in again. Finally the last shuffle would be labelled with the Greeks (α63 β63 γ63 δ63).

OK?

[DRT]

From experience of doing this a number of times I would suggest that the more people that are involved in decanting the more likely it is that there will be confusion and error.

One for the organiser to take a view on.

[PhilW]

Oh my: isn’t the current draft of placemats sufficiently complicated?

You can always ignore my suggestion, I won't be offended FWIW I didn't intend any change to placemats to be required as a consequence of the above. I would be happy to assist with preparation/decanting etc on the day if needed (assuming I'm attending - I believe so from post sequence but subject to confirmation of attendee update in original post).

[jdaw1]

I didn't intend any change to placemats to be required

There is no harm in intending an improvements to the placemats, as you did, whether or not deliberately. I think it best done with another set of decanter labels, and not more. Which have been added.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I'm waiting on Marc J to let me know whether he is still planning on visiting the UK in October as he is the first reserve. With Chris and Ray dropping from the tasting we can now accommodate two people from the reserve list.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Marc has confirmed to me that he will not be visiting the UK at a time which allows him to take part in this offline, so Phil W and Alex K are both now on the list.

Rob - your +1 is now first reserve.

I need to start organising the wines and buying those which I have not already been offered. The cost for being at this event will be £200 per person with a discount for any port you provide which therefore doesn't need to be bought in.

Could those of you (Phil) whose email addresses I don't have please send me a PM telling me how to email you. As soon as I have the email address of everyone I will send out a request for payment to be made to my bank account. For completeness, here is a list of the wines and prices from when I last checked in March:
Dow '63 - £121 from Fine & Rare
Dow '66 - £114 from Ancient & Modern
Dow '70 - £80 from Nickolls & Perks
Dow '77 - ADV
Fonseca '63 - £180 from Ancient & Modern
Fonseca '66 - £140 from Vintage Wine Gifts (also available from DRT)
Fonseca '70 - £110 from Peter Wylie
Fonseca '77 - £120 from Bibendum
Graham '63 - £174 from Seckfords (also available from DRT)
Graham '66 - RAYC
Graham '70 - £102 from Peter Wylie
Graham '77 - £60 from Cadman
Taylor '63 - £182 from Fine & Rare
Taylor '66 - £110 from Fine & Rare
Taylor '70 - £132 from Peter Wylie
Taylor '77 - £90 from Seckfords

[RAYC]

Rob - your +1 is now first reserve.

Noted - can i clarify whether the reserve list is "first option" to attend if someone drops out or a commitment to attend (and therefore to pay) if someone drops out?

The person who i had in mind back in December is presently still available and very keen, but at this stage is not planning his calendar/budget around it and therefore less comfortable if the decision does not rest in his hands at the actual time that someone drops out (and clearly, as the person who would pick up costs, i am too!).

[Alex Bridgeman]

At least as far as I am concerned for events that I organise, first reserve means you will be offered the option to attend - it's not a commitment until you agree to take up the place.

[jdaw1]

Though there should be a understanding that reserve places are not to be occupied frivolously, with only a remote chance of attendance.

[RAYC]

At least as far as I am concerned for events that I organise, first reserve means you will be offered the option to attend - it's not a commitment until you agree to take up the place.

Great - thanks for confirming

Though there should be a understanding that reserve places are not to be occupied frivolously, with only a remote chance of attendance.

Agreed - I hope my use of reserve lists in the past has not given you cause to think that this might be the case!

[jdaw1]

Agreed - I hope my use of reserve lists in the past has not given you cause to think that this might be the case!

A precedent was being created, and I wanted it slightly qualified. The qualification was not aimed at any particular person.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Unfortunately, Simon and Helen Gandy have both had to drop out from the tasting. If anyone would like to pick up their places then please let me know or post here.

It has also been suggested that we should use this event as a pilot for hiring glasses rather than relying on the RAF Club and having to rewash and dry all the glasses they provide for us. This is not a cost that had been included in the original budget so would have to be covered by a slight increase in cash contributions. if you do not want to support this pilot, please post to that effect in this thread no later than Friday 26th August.

[RAYC]

My proposed guest is on holiday and potentially out of contact for the rest of the week. I have sent an email so we'll see.

If there is a place still there on his return and he confirms, good.

If not, tough!

[Andy Velebil]

Bring on the Reidels and lets try out that glass service.

If we do, should we still have a small washing team on stand-by just in case they are needed? Would hate to have an issue on the first try of using the service. Best to be prepared just in case.

[jdaw1]

Blinding: The Plan

1. Four decanters are wrapped in tin foil, so that fewer of those involved in decanting see the colour, and those that do see it less clearly.

2. They are labelled with preprepared decanter labels on strings:
”‚ ”‚ ”‚

3. Yummy juice goes into the decanters via the usual means.

4. Alone, nobody else watching, somebody who didn’t do the decanting then shuffles the decanters, and staples over these labels four further labels:
”‚ ”‚ ”‚

5. Again alone, another somebody, different to all the previous somebodies, then re-shuffles, and staples over these four further labels:
”‚ ”‚ ”‚

6. The tin foil is removed, and prepouring done with the help of the sheets for this task:
etc.

7. Likewise for the 1970s, 1966s, and 1963s.

8. The stapled decanter labels are put away for later.

9. When all are tasted, we have mis-guessed shippers and voted for WOTN, the stapled labels can be pulled apart to reveal what is what.

[DRT]

A good plan.

Someone needs to take charge of preparing all of these decanter labels, presumably on old business cards, prior to the tasting. There will be no time to do this preparation on the day.

[DRT]

Are we also voting for WOTV {perfectly doable with this plan} and WOTS {just to add extra humiliation when each of us votes our best Fonseca of the night to be a Dow, Taylor or Graham}?

[jdaw1]

Someone needs to take charge of preparing all of these decanter labels, presumably on old business cards, prior to the tasting.

Me? But it is likely that I won’t be early enough to help at all sorry folks. So they should be posted to somebody. AHB?

Instructions. Cut; paste to the back of a business card; allow to dry. For those with a named shipper: punch holes; thread and tie string.

[jdaw1]

Are we also voting for WOTV {perfectly doable with this plan} and WOTS {just to add extra humiliation when each of us votes our best Fonseca of the night to be a Dow, Taylor or Graham}?

Already in the placemats:

[Alex Bridgeman]

My worry is that I suspect no-one (perhaps other than Tom) will be available to carry out the decanting and preparation before roughly 4:30pm, which is the earliest that I am anticipating that I will be able to arrive. As a result of this, I cannot see that there will be enough man-hours available to open all 16 bottles, decant and pour them.

So, I suggest that we modify the approach on the night to be:
(i) all people supplying bottles double-decant them prior to arrival, ideally presented wrapped in foil with only the flight (63, 66, 70, 77) known
(ii) on arrival, I label each bottle with a number 1-16 and flight
(iii) I decant each bottle into a decanter, also labelled with the same number 1-16 / flight
(iv) a second person staples over the top of my label the tasting reference A-D 63-77
(v) the glasses are poured from the decanter. Once the decanters are empty the stapled over labels are removed and kept for use once the guessing is over

The process is not as complete as your suggestion, but I think would get us as close as we can to blind given the likely limited time to prepare.

Also, please can we change the greek alphabet references to a, b, c etc. I would prefer a-d repeated for each flight but I know you feel that this could erroneously lead tasters to assume that the same wine has the same reference in each flight.

[jdaw1]

Also, please can we change the greek alphabet references to a, b, c etc. I would prefer a-d repeated for each flight but I know you feel that this could erroneously lead tasters to assume that the same wine has the same reference in each flight.

I can live with a63 b63 c63 d63, e66 f66 g66 h66, i70 j70 k70 l70, m77 n77 o77 p77.

But, as you say, I just can’t have a63, a66, a70, and a77, in which the a’s are not necessarily the same. Nor are upper case letters allowed, as D63 must be Dow 1963. (Except, possibly, in an unlikely nineteenth century horizontal.)

[jdaw1]

1. I’m bringing bottles, but am very unlikely to be there before the last moment. This, and similar behaviour from others, is likely to confound the blinding.

2. Rather than have bottles initially labelled 1 to 16, which feels too much like an order of preference, instead I propose:

• 1963:
  • From Me to You
  • Hold Your Hand
  • Never Walk Alone
  • She Loves You
• 1966:
  • Green, Green Grass
  • Distant Drums
  • Yellow Submarine
  • Pretty Flamingo
• 1970:
  • In the Summertime
  • The Wonder of You
  • Band of Gold
  • I Hear You Knocking
• 1977:
  • Silver Lady
  • Way Down
  • Name of the Game
  • Don’t Give Up on Us

I am willing to consider substitutes, provided that the name is short.

[DRT]

1. I’m bringing bottles, but am very unlikely to be there before the last moment. This, and similar behaviour from others, is likely to confound the blinding.

If we cannot (a) get the bottles to the venue at or before 2pm on the day and (b)find two or three to form a decanting team then I suggest we do not attempt to do this blind as it will be a disaster. Really, it will. Past experience tells us that, despite all the forward planning, bottles will turn up un-decanted and un-blinded at or after the appointed starting time.

I am willing to consider substitutes, provided that the name is short.

If we can find a solution to the above nightmare scenario, bottles could be labelled using the names of approved grape varieties. Or, as they might be in a sensible and non-OCD world, we could use four letters and sixteen numbers.

[jdaw1]

If we cannot (a) get the bottles to the venue at or before 2pm on the day and (b)find two or three to form a decanting team then I suggest we do not attempt to do this blind as it will be a disaster.

The evening before, or perhaps even the week before, I could deliver bottles, presumably undecanted, to a London location. However, there is much validity to DRT’s comments about a too-small too-late decanting team.

non-OCD world

Presumably one orbited by a moon made of cheese.

[PhilW]

If we cannot ... (b)find two or three to form a decanting team then I suggest we do not attempt to do this blind as it will be a disaster.

Provided I know sufficiently in advance (which this is), I'm happy to arrange to have the day off on the 11th, and could then be available as early in the day as would be useful to assist with decanting etc if that would help.

PhilW.