Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Anything to do with Port.
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JacobH
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Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by JacobH »

Port is, of course, a blended wine and is usually said to be a mixture of 5 varieties: Tinta Barroca, Tinta Roriz, Touriga Francesa, Touriga Nacional and Tinto Cão. However, the IVDP regulations (413/2001) list a far larger number of varieties that can be grown: over 100. This seems quite at odds with the more restricted selection usually used by shippers.

I have recently been wondering about how this works in practice. I sometimes notice that winemakers from the Douro list a ‟top six” rather than a ‟top five” of grapes. For example the IVDP (albeit not a winemaker) adds Tinta Amarela when listing the most ‟noteworthy” Douro red grapes; when I have seen slides produced by the Symingtons, they usually include bar steward; and I was told the 2009 Vesuvio is nearly 25% Sousão. I wonder if this is more wide-spread in the Port trade and that it is a misnomer to think of a blend of five? But perhaps these are a few exceptions. I also wonder if anyone is growing some of the minor grape varieties simply because you almost never read about them. For example, are there many Pinot Noir or the wonderfully titled Tinto-sem-Nome vineyards in the Douro?

I am also sometimes surprised by the seeming lack of correlation between the way the varieties are categorised by the IVDP and what is said about them. The regulations divide the grapes into (be warned, this gets bureaucratic) ‟Recommended” and ‟Authorised” categories and then into ‟Very Good”, ‟Good”, ‟Regular”, ‟Mediocre” and ‟Bad” sub-categories. The ‟Recommended” grapes are all ‟Very Good” and ‟Good”. A Port must have at least 60% ‟Recommended” grapes and no more than 40% ‟Authorised”. What doesn’t make sense to me is that some frequently used grapes, such as Tinta Amarela and Tinta Barroca are only regarded as ‟good”, not ‟very good” despite being a major part of most blends. Sousão is even only listed as an authorised ‟good” grape and is not recommended for Port use. Equally, some grapes which I have never heard of apart from in lists of grapes authorised for Port wine are regarded as recommended and very good. If Donzelinho-Tinto, Marufo and Tinta Francisca are as good as Touriga Nacional and Touriga Francesa, why are they almost never encountered? And how can we know they are so good for Port wine if no Ports actually contain them?

I also wonder what effect block-planting has on the selection of grapes. It does seem to me that the opportunities to grow more varieties of grapes is greater if you have field blends, but then it may be that most field blends are just a mixture of the main five in any case. The reason this interests me is that I think I am right in saying that the choice of grapes for Port has been slowly evolving over the last 150 years with Touriga Nacional and Touriga Franca formerly being hardly used and only coming into pre-eminence in the last few decades. Perhaps some of the minor varieties might prove to make even better wines in the future?

Finally, as a piece of trivia, I was interested to see that every major Madeira grape except Malmesay seems to be authorised to be grown in the Douro. Perhaps using those and a little estufagem might be one way of improving the quality of white Port ;-)
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by uncle tom »

Varietal blocks of the 'big five' versus field mixes of the many is a pretty hot topic in Portugal. Everyone in the trade I've spoken to about this seems to hold a strong view, one way or the other.

Those who believe in the varietal blocks seem only too happy to grub out old mixed vines and replant them, while those of the opposite view see it as vandalism.

Personally, I can see the advantage of varietal blocks from the point of view of it being easier to pick at optimal ripeness, but I'd be wary of limiting the number of varieties in vintage port blends, as no-one can be really sure the practice won't come with a sting in its tail, thirty or forty year hence.

For ordinary rubies and reserves, intended for near term consumption; blocks of the big five may well be a sensible and practical way to generate good juice at an economic price; but for the good stuff, great caution is desirable..

I expect the choice of varieties is driven as much by yield as it is by quality - good varieties that are rarely seen probably have poor yields, or a high susceptability to pests and diseases.

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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by JacobH »

uncle tom wrote:Personally, I can see the advantage of varietal blocks from the point of view of it being easier to pick at optimal ripeness, but I'd be wary of limiting the number of varieties in vintage port blends, as no-one can be really sure the practice won't come with a sting in its tail, thirty or forty year hence.
I suppose one question is whether there is any experimentation going on. If growers are trying less common varieties and making unusual blends then at least if there is a new discovery (like Touriga Nacional and Francesa at the end of the 19th Century) then new planting could take place. If there is not taking place then there could be some opportunities being missed.
uncle tom wrote:I expect the choice of varieties is driven as much by yield as it is by quality - good varieties that are rarely seen probably have poor yields, or a high susceptability to pests and diseases.
Hmm...I wonder if this is true. I thought Port grapes were notorious for their low yields? If you had a big quinta in the baixo corgo for making ruby Port, would you not get higher yields by growing Pinot Noir or similar?
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by Glenn E. »

JacobH wrote:Port is, of course, a blended wine and is usually said to be a mixture of 5 varieties
Graham's Six Grapes might care to differ. :wink:

I have seen "top 5" and "top 6" lists that differ with one another. Touriga Nacional, Touriga Francesa/Franca, and Tinta Roriz are the only ones that seem to make every list. Tinta Barroca, Tinta Cão, Tinta Amarela, bar steward, Sousão, and Tinta Francisca all make various lists. Beyond those, though, I rarely see anything else even mentioned.

I feel pretty certain that the IVDP's list is only as long as it is in an effort to include every variety found in significant quantity in field blends. I suspect that more than anything else they're simply trying to grandfather in as many existing field blends as possible.
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by Cynthia J »

oooohhhhhh Glenn! Slap on the hand! The Six Grapes name is NOT about how many varieties go in the bottle!!!
It is a common misconception that the Six Grapes name refers to six varieties of grapes in the blend, but in fact ‟Six Grapes” has always been Graham’s own in-house designation for its highest quality wines. Before leaving the Douro, Graham’s wines have traditionally been classified in terms of quality level on a scale of one to six grapes, with ‟Six Grapes” being the designation for wines of the highest quality. Upon arrival in the lodge in Gaia, the Six Grapes symbol has always been marked on the casks containing the best quality lots: potential vintage wines.
http://malvedos.wordpress.com/2011/04/21/six-grapes/

In other words, the lotes that go into Six Grapes are the ones that were first designated as potential Vintage component wines, and after all did not go into a Vintage wine or only part of the lote went into the Vintage blend, and the remainder was used for Six Grapes.
JacobH wrote: uncle tom wrote:I expect the choice of varieties is driven as much by yield as it is by quality - good varieties that are rarely seen probably have poor yields, or a high susceptability to pests and diseases.

Hmm...I wonder if this is true. I thought Port grapes were notorious for their low yields? If you had a big quinta in the baixo corgo for making ruby Port, would you not get higher yields by growing Pinot Noir or similar?
Pinot Noir would not be allowed by IVDP regulation in Port wines, assuming it could even survive a year in the Douro!! You get higher yields in the Baixo Corgo by virtue of the much higher rainfalls and generally less austere soil - watch out the window on the train you can SEE how much lusher it is there, versus Pinhão - Tua - beyond Valeira. Big fat rain laden grapes = higher yields for varieties which yield far less further east in tougher conditions. In fact some varieties (Francesa, Roriz) can yield more than desirable - too high a yield you get poorer quality fruit, so you actually manage things things like root stock, clonal selection or other viticultural practices to control and limit quantity to keep quality high.
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by RAYC »

Cynthia J wrote: Pinot Noir would not be allowed by IVDP regulation in Port wines, assuming it could even survive a year in the Douro!!
Cynthia - have a look at the link provided by Jacob in his first post - i'm not a portuguese speaker but if his summary is correct, it suggests that pinot noir is allowed in the blend under ivdp regs (see p.7)

also i recall Dirk has experimented with pinot noir in the Douro (for wine rather than port)- though i'm not sure how successful it was/is
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by Glenn E. »

Cynthia J wrote:oooohhhhhh Glenn! Slap on the hand! The Six Grapes name is NOT about how many varieties go in the bottle!!!
It is a common misconception that the Six Grapes name refers to six varieties of grapes in the blend, but in fact ‟Six Grapes” has always been Graham’s own in-house designation for its highest quality wines. Before leaving the Douro, Graham’s wines have traditionally been classified in terms of quality level on a scale of one to six grapes, with ‟Six Grapes” being the designation for wines of the highest quality. Upon arrival in the lodge in Gaia, the Six Grapes symbol has always been marked on the casks containing the best quality lots: potential vintage wines.
http://malvedos.wordpress.com/2011/04/21/six-grapes/

In other words, the lotes that go into Six Grapes are the ones that were first designated as potential Vintage component wines, and after all did not go into a Vintage wine or only part of the lote went into the Vintage blend, and the remainder was used for Six Grapes.
That's really cool! I'd always just assumed it meant that there were 6 different grapes used to make the blend, in no small part because 6 does show up frequently as the number of "primary" varieties used for Port.

Thanks for the information! :D
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by JacobH »

Glenn E. wrote:Graham's Six Grapes might care to differ. :wink:

I have seen "top 5" and "top 6" lists that differ with one another. Touriga Nacional, Touriga Francesa/Franca, and Tinta Roriz are the only ones that seem to make every list. Tinta Barroca, Tinta Cão, Tinta Amarela, bar steward, Sousão, and Tinta Francisca all make various lists. Beyond those, though, I rarely see anything else even mentioned.
Hmm...have you ever seen Donzelinho-Tinto or Marufo listed? I do still wonder why these are rated so highly by the IVDP if they are so rarely encountered.
RAYC wrote:
Cynthia J wrote: Pinot Noir would not be allowed by IVDP regulation in Port wines, assuming it could even survive a year in the Douro!!
Cynthia - have a look at the link provided by Jacob in his first post - i'm not a portuguese speaker but if his summary is correct, it suggests that pinot noir is allowed in the blend under ivdp regs (see p.7)
Yes, that was why I mentioned it (in addition to it being the only grape variety I recognised from lower-down the IVDPs lists!).
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by Glenn E. »

JacobH wrote:
Glenn E. wrote:I have seen "top 5" and "top 6" lists that differ with one another. Touriga Nacional, Touriga Francesa/Franca, and Tinta Roriz are the only ones that seem to make every list. Tinta Barroca, Tinta Cão, Tinta Amarela, bar steward, Sousão, and Tinta Francisca all make various lists. Beyond those, though, I rarely see anything else even mentioned.
Hmm...have you ever seen Donzelinho-Tinto or Marufo listed? I do still wonder why these are rated so highly by the IVDP if they are so rarely encountered.
Not that I can recall. It really seems like a top 9 from my browsings... or really a top 7+2 considering that bar steward and Sousão seem to show up less frequently than the others.

My theory (which is not much more than a wild guess) is that while Donzelinho-Tinto and Marufo would make for great Port, they're (even more) difficult to grow and so no one bothers to plant them.
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by Cynthia J »

Miles Edlmann has been following this thread, and asked I contribute this on his behalf:

Three possibly interesting points about your (and others’) posts on this discussion thread

1) Malmsey is on the list of Port grapes ”“ it’s called Malvasia in Portuguese.

2) The reason the list of grape varieties is so extensive is that the older vineyards predate the law ”“ thus it had to include every variety already planted in the Douro, thereby legalising them.

3) When the classification of the varieties into various quality categories was carried out by Moreira de Fonseca there were no block plantings in the Douro, and thus no single varietal wines to evaluate. Instead, he carried out a kind of subjective factorial analysis of wines made from varying percentages of each variety (depending on their prevalence in the mixed vineyards from which the wines were made) and tried to work out which castas were present in greater quantities in the better wines, and their relative contributions.

I hope this sheds some light on the subject
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by g-man »

Cynthia J wrote:Miles Edlmann has been following this thread, and asked I contribute this on his behalf:

3) When the classification of the varieties into various quality categories was carried out by Moreira de Fonseca there were no block plantings in the Douro, and thus no single varietal wines to evaluate. Instead, he carried out a kind of subjective factorial analysis of wines made from varying percentages of each variety (depending on their prevalence in the mixed vineyards from which the wines were made) and tried to work out which castas were present in greater quantities in the better wines, and their relative contributions.

I hope this sheds some light on the subject
I'm confused by that statement,

does that mean he drank his way to figure out what made him happy?

Because it sounds like I found out why I love fonseca's so much.
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by Cynthia J »

Sounds that way to me too! Trust Miles to call "tasting" a "subjective factorial analysis" !! I will be spending tomorrow (Friday) with Miles, he called and offered me a day of "some wild vineyard action" !! I will try to ask him for more information on this.
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by JacobH »

Cynthia J wrote:Miles Edlmann has been following this thread, and asked I contribute this on his behalf:
Thanks for posting this Cynthia (and thanks, Miles, if you are reading this!); it’s very interesting.
Cynthia J wrote:1) Malmsey is on the list of Port grapes ”“ it’s called Malvasia in Portuguese.
Ah, I had thought that ‟Malvasia” was a fairly general term and that only Malvasia Candida which doesn’t, as far as I can see, appear on the list is used for Madeira. I rather like the idea of some Douro Madeira; would be great fun for blind tastings at least!
Cynthia J wrote:Sounds that way to me too! Trust Miles to call "tasting" a "subjective factorial analysis" !! I will be spending tomorrow (Friday) with Miles, he called and offered me a day of "some wild vineyard action" !! I will try to ask him for more information on this.
If wonder, if we start using that expression for our tastings, whether we would be able to get funding from the IVDP? I am sure some subjective factorial analysis has to take place as to whether the Vintage Port should retain its place with the ‟categorias especiais”, for instance. ;-)

Cynthia, if you do get a chance, would there be any possibility of asking Miles about Donzelinho-Tinto and Marufo? I’d be interested as to whether he thinks they deserve their place in the best categories and whether they are still grown much in the Douro.
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by Cynthia J »

I will try to find time to bring up this page and go through it with him -maybe get him to answer on my log in at lunch time or something, depending on what exactly is going on! Cross fingers ...
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by g-man »

JacobH wrote:
Cynthia J wrote:Sounds that way to me too! Trust Miles to call "tasting" a "subjective factorial analysis" !! I will be spending tomorrow (Friday) with Miles, he called and offered me a day of "some wild vineyard action" !! I will try to ask him for more information on this.
If wonder, if we start using that expression for our tastings, whether we would be able to get funding from the IVDP? I am sure some subjective factorial analysis has to take place as to whether the Vintage Port should retain its place with the ‟categorias especiais”, for instance. ;-)
Yes,
please refer to here,
here,
and here

for examples of our subjective factorial analysis if necessary :mrgreen:
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by Cynthia J »

JacobH wrote:Cynthia, if you do get a chance, would there be any possibility of asking Miles about Donzelinho-Tinto and Marufo? I’d be interested as to whether he thinks they deserve their place in the best categories and whether they are still grown much in the Douro.
The things I do for you guys... Coaxed Miles away from his research du jour to ask about this. Donzelinho-Tinto is one he has heard old people speak highly of, but ... he cautions that may have been because of yields more than anything else. Remember to a small farmer with less than a hectare, yield is likely to be the priority. Marufo seems to have disappeared from the collective consciousness, Miles has never heard it mentioned.

Also you need to understand, that IVDP listing was not produced under the kind of rigorous analytical conditions you would expect of such an exercise today. As Miles understands it, Moreira de Fonseca basically went around to the lagares and tasted the wines being made. He then looked out at the nearby vineyard to see if any particular variety dominated. If, for example, the vineyard was mostly XXX and the wine was pretty good, he put that dominant XXX grape into the "pretty good" bucket on his ranking. Back in the 30s when this was being done, grapes werent transported as they are now, so the assumption was made that what was in the lagar was what was growing outside the door. But of course, there was no accounting for the winemaking techniques, hygiene, etc. If the winemaking was bad, a perfectly good grape may have gotten a bad rep. Or a grape which is not inherently interesting, but which appeared to dominate a vineyard, might have been highly ranked when really it was everything else in the lagar that was making interesting wine. So... the IVDP list is interesting, but ... treat with caution.

On a separate note, I am surprised this conversation has said nothing about the research done by João Nicolau de Almeida and José Ramos Pinto Rosas back in the 70s - it was their research that brought Touriga Nacional, Tinta Roriz, Touriga Franca, Tinta Barroca and Tinta Cão into the limelight as being their pick of the varieties for making port and table wines. I wrote a little bit about that in my own blog in March 2010 at http://winewomantravel.wordpress.com/20 ... ervamoira/ When I visited the museum at Ervamoira, there were sample bottles of single varietal wines there - João was in fact making those to trial the varieties as part of his research. I have met João since then and would love to go back and spend time and ask him to tell me the story of this work, but given my role with Graham's I hesitate, naturally. It is a story that needs to be told and written.
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by Andy Velebil »

Cynthia J wrote:

On a separate note, I am surprised this conversation has said nothing about the research done by João Nicolau de Almeida and José Ramos Pinto Rosas back in the 70s - it was their research that brought Touriga Nacional, Tinta Roriz, Touriga Franca, Tinta Barroca and Tinta Cão into the limelight as being their pick of the varieties for making port and table wines. I wrote a little bit about that in my own blog in March 2010 at http://winewomantravel.wordpress.com/20 ... ervamoira/ When I visited the museum at Ervamoira, there were sample bottles of single varietal wines there - João was in fact making those to trial the varieties as part of his research. I have met João since then and would love to go back and spend time and ask him to tell me the story of this work, but given my role with Graham's I hesitate, naturally. It is a story that needs to be told and written.
Cynthia,
Interesting and enlightening info from Miles.

I've had the rare opportunity twice to have tasted in a horizontal Joao's 1983 Ramos Pinto Single Varietal Ports. Both times have been one of the most education things I've done, to see how each grape ages on it's own and what each one brings to the table.
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by JacobH »

Cynthia J wrote:
JacobH wrote:Cynthia, if you do get a chance, would there be any possibility of asking Miles about Donzelinho-Tinto and Marufo? I’d be interested as to whether he thinks they deserve their place in the best categories and whether they are still grown much in the Douro.
The things I do for you guys... Coaxed Miles away from his research du jour to ask about this. Donzelinho-Tinto is one he has heard old people speak highly of, but ... he cautions that may have been because of yields more than anything else. Remember to a small farmer with less than a hectare, yield is likely to be the priority. Marufo seems to have disappeared from the collective consciousness, Miles has never heard it mentioned.
Thank you very much for this Cynthia. As an amateur enthusiast, it's always nice to be able to get a definitive answer to a question that would otherwise only be answered by idle speculation!
Cynthia J wrote:Also you need to understand, that IVDP listing was not produced under the kind of rigorous analytical conditions you would expect of such an exercise today. As Miles understands it, Moreira de Fonseca basically went around to the lagares and tasted the wines being made. He then looked out at the nearby vineyard to see if any particular variety dominated. If, for example, the vineyard was mostly XXX and the wine was pretty good, he put that dominant XXX grape into the "pretty good" bucket on his ranking. Back in the 30s when this was being done, grapes werent transported as they are now, so the assumption was made that what was in the lagar was what was growing outside the door. But of course, there was no accounting for the winemaking techniques, hygiene, etc. If the winemaking was bad, a perfectly good grape may have gotten a bad rep. Or a grape which is not inherently interesting, but which appeared to dominate a vineyard, might have been highly ranked when really it was everything else in the lagar that was making interesting wine. So... the IVDP list is interesting, but ... treat with caution.
I wonder what the other shippers thought about having Moreira de Fonseca inspect their new wines in the lagares? I know that things are quite friendly in the Douro, but it must have given him an extraordinary knowledge of what each quinta could produce if he could go around and sample what was being produced; a huge advantage if he wanted to change his suppliers!

Anyway, perhaps more extraordinary is that the IVDP hasn't gone back and looked at this properly considering that block-planting is more common and the existing list seems so far removed from reality. But thank you very much for the answer.
Cynthia J wrote:On a separate note, I am surprised this conversation has said nothing about the research done by João Nicolau de Almeida and José Ramos Pinto Rosas back in the 70s - it was their research that brought Touriga Nacional, Tinta Roriz, Touriga Franca, Tinta Barroca and Tinta Cão into the limelight as being their pick of the varieties for making port and table wines. I wrote a little bit about that in my own blog in March 2010 at http://winewomantravel.wordpress.com/20 ... ervamoira/ When I visited the museum at Ervamoira, there were sample bottles of single varietal wines there - João was in fact making those to trial the varieties as part of his research. I have met João since then and would love to go back and spend time and ask him to tell me the story of this work, but given my role with Graham's I hesitate, naturally. It is a story that needs to be told and written.
Yes, this is very true. I'd love to visit Ervamoira sometime since it although it isn't the most romantic or historic quinta in the Duoro, the work that goes on there is really interesting and it could easily be regarded as one of the most important.

Thinking about what you said, RAYC and I tried the 2009 single varietal samples from Quevedo a couple of nights ago; it's really interesting how different they are and how they go together into a blend. I'd love to try some more of some of the other grapes too, to see what they are like. I think Quinta do Infantado tried producing some in the 1980s, too, for which I'm going to keep an eye open.
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by Cynthia J »

JacobH wrote:I wonder what the other shippers thought about having Moreira de Fonseca inspect their new wines in the lagares? I know that things are quite friendly in the Douro, but it must have given him an extraordinary knowledge of what each quinta could produce if he could go around and sample what was being produced; a huge advantage if he wanted to change his suppliers!
Again a caution: this was done in the 30s - not a lot of large shippers making own wines at that time - some shippers, but not many, and those shippers were making a small percentage of the wines they used and buying in the majority. Moreira de Fonseca may have visited those few shippers, but the vast majority of his research would have been based on visiting all the little independent farmers who sold finished wines to the shippers - not grapes, but finished wines they made themselves in their own lagares. And he was conducting his research on behalf of the Casa do Douro, not a shipper. Always bear in mind, the way things are today - with most shippers/producers making at least some if not a majority of their wines themselves - has really only come about in the past 30 years or so.

Your comment about the IVDP not going back to revisit this... I think we all would wish it, but its not likely to happen soon. There isnt a lot of money for research, and when the IVDPs financial reserves are appropriated by the government... http://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2011/0 ... rom-douro/ ... heavy sigh. There are other institutions, notably ADVID http://www.advid.pt/index.php?op=menu&mid=23&lang=pt (english pages not working yet) and the University of Tras os Montes e Alto Douro (UTAD) that conduct and support research, but it all takes time. And money. And prioritisation of research into minor or obscure varieties versus other concerns... I wouldnt hold my breath.
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by g-man »

would it be possible to have a private entity with government backing control the quality of port coming out of hte country?

I wonder.
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by Cynthia J »

We have it - the IVDP http://www.ivdp.pt/pagina.asp?idioma=1& ... dSeccao=1& It is not "private" it is squarely government. Thank the Marques de Pombal for recognising the importance of the Port trade to Portugal's economy and bringing government authority to bear in its regulation!
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by DRT »

How are other wine regions regulated? Are they regulated at all?

I often wonder what would happen if the IVDP were to disappear and leave the consumers to "regulate" the quality of what comes out of the Douro. The number of styles of Port and the confusion that could be caused by having freedom to choose how to describe what is in the bottle would no doubt lead to confusion initially, but at the end of the day consumers will only pay for what they enjoy drinking.

Is there a different model that could work for the port trade?
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
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Cynthia J
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by Cynthia J »

Hi Derek. Regarding other regions, yes, there are governing bodies, similar to the IVDP, that set criteria for what makes a wine DOC or Regional etc. and they also conduct the kind of food-safety and quality testing that the IVDP does - I remember Hamilton Silva Reis (winemaker for Cortes de Cima in the Altentejo) showing me how they do their own lab testing same as the regional authority, same as IVDP, to ensure quality and safety of their wines (which are fabulous http://cortesdecima.com/. InfoVini is the portal for Portuguese wines http://www.infovini.com/ If you go to the Regiões page, click on any region to get the dedicated page, on the right hand bar you will see the link to the relevant wine authority. Whole thing in Portuguese, but you can probably get the drift...
DRT wrote:Is there a different model that could work for the port trade?
Now you are getting well over my head, I admit, I do not have the knowledge or experience of dealing with the authorities over the years to answer this. But I cannot imagine an industry like wine going wholly un regulated by the government authorities. Think about the taxation opportunity! If you were a government, would you throw that away? Then there's the public food safety issues, etc. etc. etc. Nope... not likely.
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JacobH
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Re: Minor Grape Varieties in Port

Post by JacobH »

I’ve been thinking about these last few comments from Derek, g-man and Cynthia since they were posted and tried to get my head around the regulatory system for other wines and drinks.
Cynthia J wrote:Hi Derek. Regarding other regions, yes, there are governing bodies, similar to the IVDP, that set criteria for what makes a wine DOC or Regional etc. and they also conduct the kind of food-safety and quality testing that the IVDP does - I remember Hamilton Silva Reis (winemaker for Cortes de Cima in the Altentejo) showing me how they do their own lab testing same as the regional authority, same as IVDP, to ensure quality and safety of their wines (which are fabulous http://cortesdecima.com/. InfoVini is the portal for Portuguese wines http://www.infovini.com/ If you go to the Regiões page, click on any region to get the dedicated page, on the right hand bar you will see the link to the relevant wine authority. Whole thing in Portuguese, but you can probably get the drift...
I wonder if it is a particularly Portuguese modus operandi to have institutes like the IVDP, IVM &c. &c. which take such an active part in the control of the wines?

Looking at the UK (since I can at least read the regulations!), the closest thing we have to a regulated wine industry is that for Scotch Whisky. The regulations are reasonable complex since whisky can be sold in five categories (‟single malt”, ‟blended malt” &c.), with five official regions and rules about showing ages and years on the bottles. Then there are regulations about additives, strength and maturation. However, there is no general enforcement or standards body. Revenue and Customs has a certain responsibility for regulations to do with maturation since whisky is matured in bonded warehouses which they, theoretically, are monitoring. However, if a distiller was marketing a grain whisky as a single malt, I think enforcement action would be taken by the general-purposes Trading Standards authorities or, if it produced something poisonous, by the Food Standards authorities and not by any central body.

I would be interested to see what the situation is like in other countries, such as France and German (the later because of its complex wine laws). I notice that sherry (and perhaps other Spanish wines) has, I think, a body a bit like the IVDP, the Consejo Regulador for Sherry, which--according to the website--takes a very hands-on approach to monitoring all stages of production. However, I notice that it seems to be made up by elected professionals from the sherry industry, which I assume makes the wine far more self-regulating than in Porto. I imagine it would also abolish the need for all the extra bodies representing different parts of the trade which seems to be a particular problem in the Port industry.
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