Port in Paris

[jdaw1]

An ongoing grumble is developing on the subject of Port in Paris. To spare other readers the flagellation it can come to this thread.

[jdaw1]

Monoprix on Boulevard de Sébastopol has:

• Graham’s Porto, Finest Reserve (€12,30);
• Graham’s LBV 2000 (€24,69);
• Porto de Oro 10Y Tawny (€12,85);
• Hooper’s LBV 2002 (€12,99);
• Porto Cruz Special Reserve (€9,95);
• Porto de Oro Tawny (€6,29);
• Sandeman Ruby Porto (€8,08);
• Ferreira Porto Tawny (€8,92);
• Porto do Oro Blanc (€6,29);
• Porto Pitters Tawny (€7,39);
• Porto Ereiro Tawny (€5,90);
• Porto Cruz Blanc (€7,88);
• Porto Cruz Tawny (€7,88);
• Porto Cruz Pink (€7,35).

[jdaw1]

I have found that which claims to be the best port shop in France, Lavina, at 3 Boulevard de la Madeleine (near Place d’Opera), 75001 Paris, +33 1 42 97 20 20. Graham 1970! Except that they want €288 a bottle. Likewise Taylor 1963 for a mere €503. Nacional 1970 costs €994,80; and Fonseca 2000 at €295 a magnum or €153,25 a bottle.

Also two bottles of use for tastings: Fojo 1998 at €60,80; and Fojo 1996 at €56.

The shop assistant was most interesting. As with other cavists, he insists that the French neither understand nor drink good port. Indeed, Lavinia used to have more, but they’re not buying any, are selling their stocks gradually, and seem to intend not to replace any.

He took my card, and promised to give my details to any portheads who happen to visit.

[jdaw1]

Nysa Vins & spiritueux on 94 rue Montorgueil had:
• Quinta de Santa Barbara, Special Reserve Tawny, at €17,50 a bottle;
• Porto Osmann 10Y, at €27,50.
The former is interesting: I thought that Santa Barbara is owned by the IVDP and used for experiments. Maybe I misremembered.

Next I must mention Nicolas . They are everywhere. In the UK they would be said to have a monopoly, but doubtless French libel lawyers would tell me that the term is ‟national champion” or some other guff. Apparently there are 250ish of them in Paris. I have photos of the dodgy-looking stuff they sell, but the data below also uses the website.
• Graham's Quinta Dos Malvedos 1998, €42.60;
• King's Port Blanc, €9;
• King's Port Red Crown 20Y, €33.10;
• King's Port Ruby Reserva Especial, €7.75;
• King's Port Tawny, €8.90;
• Lágrima Adriano Ramos-Pinto €14.75;
• Noval Fine Ruby, €10.55;
• Noval Fine White, €10.65;
• Noval Tawny 10Y, €23.20;
• Noval Tawny 20Y, €40;
• Quinta de Sao Pedro das Aguias Ruby, €10.65;
• Ramos Pinto 10Y Tawny, Quinta de Ervamoira, €25.75;
• Rozès Vintage 1997, €25.10 (website says LBV, but it is vintage);
• Sao Pedro das Aguias 10Y, €16.10;
• Taylor's LBV 2001, €20.75;
• Taylor 10Y, €28.10.

Le Repaire de Bacchus is a much smaller chain of shops. The one at 6 Rue Bayen, 75017 Paris, +33 1 47 66 76 75 was tended by a fine damsel vaguely interested in port, who now has my card. Meanwhile:
• Andresen 1991 colheita, €32.50;
• Andresen 1995 colheita, €25.90;
• Andresen 2003 vintage, €59;
• Andresen tawny, €13.75;
• Andresen white, €14.90;
• Ramos-Pinto 2003 LBV, €25;
• Halves of Smith Woodhouse 2000 vintage, €29.75.

I think, but am not absolutely sure, that it was in a previous visit to a branch of this chain that I saw the Noval 1968 colheita for €144.85.

[Andy Velebil]

Wow, not much to chose from and at some of those prices...double

Is it easy to import in from the UK or other nearby countries? Or you may need to take the train to another country for some "supplies."

[jdaw1]

There are plans afoot for Derek to deliver an emergency red cross parcel. Maybe ten cases or so.

[Andy Velebil]

There are plans afoot for Derek to deliver an emergency red cross parcel. Maybe ten cases or so.

Will that be enough to hold you temporarily?

[Glenn E.]

There are plans afoot for Derek to deliver an emergency red cross parcel. Maybe ten cases or so.

If you have suitable storage and wouldn't mind temporarily holding some bottles, it might be more efficient to add the 4 bottles that Derek is currently holding for me to this emergency delivery to you in Paris. I could then pick them up in person between Oct 22 and Oct 25.

I'm also in the process of ordering 4 bottles from Goncalo at Vinologia, and could have those shipped to you as well. Again, if you have suitable storage and wouldn't mind holding them temporarily.

If not, our current plan is to ship all 8 bottles to my hotel in Maastricht so we're already suitably covered. I have an 8-bottle wine suitcase for carrying them back to the US.

[jdaw1]

There are plans afoot for Derek to deliver an emergency red cross parcel. Maybe ten cases or so.

Will that be enough to hold you temporarily?

Not really: Derek is visiting that weekend.

[mosesbotbol]

Wow, that is a tough selection...

[Glenn E.]

Good news! I'll actually be in Paris 2 days longer than I thought: Oct 22-Oct 27. I thought we were flying home on Sunday, but my wife informs me that we are not flying home until early on the following Tuesday.

[jdaw1]

Alas 5ème Cru appears to be at the extreme of Paris port availability, having exactly none.

Special worst-website prize goes to Cavestève, proudly declaring ‟À bientôt sur notre nouveau site!”, said new site containing close to no content. Second place goes to Caves Augé, it avoiding the wooden spoon by having copy-pastable text and none of the smugness.

[jdaw1]

Now working my way through Dr Vino’s list of Paris wine shops and wine bars.

Au Verger de la Madeleine, +33 1 42 65 51 99:
1977 Taylor's, 250€
1985 Do Noval Nacional, 420€
1997 Do Noval, 214€
1998 Dow's, 79€
2000 Graham's, 85€
2000 Dow's, 80€
2000 Ramos Pinto, 67€

La Cave de Tolbiac, 45 rue de Tolbiac, Paris 13ème (on the website click Alcools, which says something about how the French view port), has Burmester 2003 at €39, Ramos Pinto 10Y at €29.90, and many less prestigious Ramos Pinto ports.

[jdaw1]

Note to self: must visit the following.
• De Vinis Illustribus needs to be visited in person at 48 rue de la Montagne, Ste Geneviève, 75005 Paris, +33 1 43 36 12 12, ouvert de 11h à 20h Tuesday to Saturday.
• La dernière goutte (The last drop), 6 Rue de Bourbon le Château, 75006 Paris, +33 1 43 29 11 62;
• Julien Caviste, 50 Rue Charlot, 75003 Paris, +33 1 42 72 01 97 (map);
• Nono”Ž, 43 Rue Tourtille, 75020 Paris”Ž, +33 1 43 49 37 79”Ž.

[uncle tom]

1977 Taylor's, 250€
1985 Do Noval Nacional, 420€
1997 Do Noval, 214€
1998 Dow's, 79€
2000 Graham's, 85€
2000 Dow's, 80€
2000 Ramos Pinto, 67€

Je pense que les meilleurs sont trop chers..

Tom

[jdaw1]

Le Vin en Tête have some interesting tastings, though not of port. Alas my French isn’t (yet) good enough to cope.

[jdaw1]

Desperate times call for desperate measures: I have joined two MeetUp groups, The Paris Wine Meetup Group and The Paris Wine Tasting.

[jdaw1]

Ma Cave, 105 Rue Belleville, 75019 Paris, +33 1 42 08 62 95, had much of the usual low-grade port and:
• Burmester 2000 vintage, €86,80;
• Ramos Pinto 2003 vintage, €69,50;
• Ramos Pinto 20Y tawny, €59 (plus some centimes off the right side of my photograph);
• Osborne 1999 LBV, €41,50.

Despite the massive pricing of the ports, it’s a nicely quirky shop with some excellent (though non-cheap) whisky, and some good and fairly priced champagne.

[RonnieRoots]

Order from the UK or Portugal and you'll still be much better off. It's what we do as well. Although it is still impossible then for us to get anything into Oman.

Re: Santa Barbara - This is a quinta owned by Poças, and used as a Single Quinta brand by them.

[RonnieRoots]

Also two bottles of use for tastings: Fojo 1998 at €60,80; and Fojo 1996 at €56

Those are more or less the same prices as you can find in Portugal. That doesn't make them any cheaper though. If you buy, I would be interested to hear what you think of the wines.

[jdaw1]

Franprix does, even by French standards, down-market port.
• €2,95: Porto Cruz tawny in a 20cl ‘flask’;
• €7,80: Porto Cruz tawny;
• €7,95: Porto Cruz blanc;
• €8,40: Porto Pitters tawny;
• €8,75: Sandeman ruby;
• €8,82: Rozès tawny;
• €11,95: Ferreira tawny.

[jdaw1]

Small annoyance. Most Parisian number plates end in the two digits that start the French post code. It irks to have, repeatedly shown to me whilst ambling about thinking of nice port, ‟75”.

[jdaw1]

I have even sought help on ForTheLoveOfPort.com, eRobertParker.com and Tom Cannavan's wine-pages.

Edit: and WineBerserkers.com.

[SushiNorth]

Speaking of port in paris, have any tastings been planned? I think a few folks from the second 77 tasting are going to be passing through paris.

[DRT]

I don't speak French but it seems that someone here tasted Morgan 1963 in a controlled environment in Paris in the recent past.

[jdaw1]

At Restaurant Au Relais des Buttes-Chaumont (86 rue Compans, Paris 19ème, +33 1 42 08 24 70) I spoke with Eléonor Descordes, who seemed happy to accommodate a port-drinkers’ BYOB other than at a weekend.

[Glenn E.]

If their food is agreeable as their BYOP policy, this may be a good restaurant for us during our visit. I have arranged for a nice bottle to share while we're there. If I remember our itinerary correctly we will arrive in Paris on Wednesday the 21st, so perhaps we should tentatively schedule dinner for Thursday night?

[jdaw1]

Links:

• 1970 Kopke S. Luiz;
• 1985 Churchill;
• 1985 Taylor;
• 2007 Quevedo;
• Placemats;
• Some planning;
• Review of the evening as a whole.

[Glenn E.]

I only have limited internet access while in Paris, but wanted to at least mention that all four Ports were very good (though the T85 had been open too long) and the restaurant was exceptional.

Puzzling... we had reservations for Friday night, but there was only one other table (for 2) occupied during our time there. The service was good, the food was very good, the prices were reasonable (actually probably low) for the quality of the food, and the location is easily accessible by Metro. So why was it empty?

I'll post full TNs once I return to Seattle.

[JacobH]

Puzzling... we had reservations for Friday night, but there was only one other table (for 2) occupied during our time there. The service was good, the food was very good, the prices were reasonable (actually probably low) for the quality of the food, and the location is easily accessible by Metro. So why was it empty?

Any vegetarian food on the menu? (Finding places which fit the criteria you list always seems a trouble in Paris!)...

[Glenn E.]

Any vegetarian food on the menu? (Finding places which fit the criteria you list always seems a trouble in Paris!)...

I'm not sure. Once my eyes rested on the listing for the big slab of red meat with au poivre sauce I kind of lost track of anything else that might have been available. I suspect that there was probably something, but Julian will have to confirm or deny that for you.

[DRT]

Julian is unlikely to have read any section of the menu that consisted mainly of green things.

[smisse]

Julian,

The famous restaurant "La Tour D'argent" seems to sell port under their own name. (http://www.tourdargent.com/)
Surely there must be some nice port hiding in their cellars (contains +400000 bottles).
They recently discovered a few bottles of Cognac from 1788

Did you try this restaurant?

rgrds,
Dries

[jdaw1]

Julian is unlikely to have read any section of the menu that consisted mainly of green things.

Nothing to add.

The famous restaurant "La Tour D'argent" seems to sell port under their own name. (http://www.tourdargent.com/)

Note to self: must try.

[DRT]

Please can JDAW or Glenn post a thread in the Review section to record the 2nd Paris port tasting in the history of the world for posterity?

[RonnieRoots]

The famous restaurant "La Tour D'argent" seems to sell port under their own name. (http://www.tourdargent.com/)

Note to self: must try.

This port geek googled it immediately. It appears to be bottled by Andresen. Still, the 20YOT may be worth it to try. The other options are Ruby, Tawny and White. And very expensive...

[JacobH]

The famous restaurant "La Tour D'argent" seems to sell port under their own name. (http://www.tourdargent.com/)

Note to self: must try.

This port geek googled it immediately. It appears to be bottled by Andresen. Still, the 20YOT may be worth it to try. The other options are Ruby, Tawny and White. And very expensive...

I think that goes without saying, considering which restaurant it is...

He who would be called the "Bayreuth of cuisine" reigned for over 40 years, creating and establishing his rites and imposing his rigor. Two bars of Offenbach and four lines of Ibsen ”“ that describes the outer man. Impassive and dignified, he welcomed his guests, with an eye to everything and a word for everyone. He very soon became known, recognized and esteemed ”“ very few of those who visited his restaurant did not immediately become his faithful friend, whether crowned heads, literary people, artists or simple gourmets. What they all had in common was a passion and respect for great cuisine. For Frédéric, cuisine was a serious matter and he did not take kindly to any disrespect for it!

Twice a day, Frédéric offered the wonderful spectacle of a consummate artist's contribution to the theater of excellent cuisine. In three strokes of a razor-sharp blade, a plump duck roasted "with a drop of blood", skewered on the end of a fork, was sliced into two portions: on one side, the wings and the legs, on the other the body. This was followed by the great ceremonial of the duck press.

Incidentally, does trying to navigate that website remind anyone else of those "point-and-click" computer games which used to (and probably still do) exist?

[Glenn E.]

The famous restaurant "La Tour D'argent" seems to sell port under their own name. (http://www.tourdargent.com/)

Note to self: must try.

Fair warning: La Tour D'Argent is probably one of the most expensive restaurants in all of Paris, right up there with the Jules Verne at the Eiffel Tower. I would expect dinner to run close to 200 Euros per person, and that's without buying from their famously long (400 pages) wine list. Lunch at the Jules Verne two years ago for my wife and I was 300 Euros.

That said, some day I'd like to try it also. Perhaps right after I win the lottery. Note to self: must start buying lottery tickets.

[jdaw1]

I have just returned from the evening session of the first day of a much-promoted wine auction in Paris (see, for example, the BBC story entitled Paris restaurant auctions wine from famed cellar). There follow some example lots (prices excluding the ≈23% buyer’s premium).

• 843: Andresen colheita 1900 @ €1000;
• 845: 6×D60 @ €850;
• 846 & 847: 3×NN63 @ €5k;
• 850: 3×NN66 @ €1300;
• 852: 3×N66 @ €530;
• 854: 6×G70 @ €500;
• 857: 6×Cr75 @ €320;
• 858: 6×NN75 @ €1900 (I hope the auctioneers didn’t confuse my head-shaking with a bid);
• 860: 6×T77 @ €1100;
• 866: 6×F80 @ €380;
• 871→873: 12×½s D85 @ €350;
• 878: 12×½s N85 @ €550;
• 884: 6×NN87 @ €1800;
• 885: 6×V89 @ €350;
• 905: 12×ChAA92 @ €550;
• 910: 24×½s T94 @ €950.

I didn’t buy anything.

Odd auction. There were two auctioneers, calling out prices in near synchrony. A big screen behind them showed pictures of representative bottles from each lot. Fourteen rows of seats, fourteen seats in each, about two-thirds full, about two-thirds of them being male. Roughly half the women, and so a quarter of the men, seemed to be attached to their neighbour. Lot 807, an 1788 cognac, estimated about €3k, sold for €25k (plus extras). Yikes!

[Glenn E.]

Some of those prices aren't too bad, assuming you've listed the lot price and not a per bottle price. Lot 854 seems reasonable (by US standards) for 6 x G70, for example.

I'm jealous that you're able to be there! I doubt I'd buy, but it would sure be fun to watch in person.

[jdaw1]

‟854: 6×G70 @ €500” is €500+bp ≈ €620 ≈ $950 per lot or almost $160 per bottle. That’s not auction bargain.

[JacobH]

(prices excluding the ≈23% buyer’s premium)

Is that the normal buyers’ premium rate in France?

Lot 807, an 1788 cognac, estimated about €3k, sold for €25k (plus extras). Yikes!

I hope at that price that it didn't suffer the providence issues that plague older Cognacs...

[jdaw1]

(prices excluding the ≈23% buyer’s premium)

Is that the normal buyers’ premium rate in France?

I don’t know. Maybe the sellers get it easier than in the UK?

Lot 807, an 1788 cognac, estimated about €3k, sold for €25k (plus extras). Yikes!

I hope at that price that it didn't suffer the providence issues that plague older Cognacs...

The Cognacs from Rhode Island were never highly rated.

[JacobH]

Lot 807, an 1788 cognac, estimated about €3k, sold for €25k (plus extras). Yikes!

I hope at that price that it didn't suffer the providence issues that plague older Cognacs...

The Cognacs from Rhode Island were never highly rated.

Opps...apparently I had had insufficient coffee before posting...

[Portman]

These prices look God-awful from North America. Six bottles of Taylor 1977 for 1,100 Euro? That is twice what you can get it for here per bottle, not even adding the weak dollar/Euro conversion. Mon Dieu!

[Glenn E.]

‟854: 6×G70 @ €500” is €500+bp ≈ €620 ≈ $950 per lot or almost $160 per bottle. That’s not auction bargain.

Oh right, forgot the buyer's premium. $125 per bottle is a good price for a G70 (in the US)... $160 is not. Low-end retail for G70 is about $150 in the US right now.

I don't assume that auctions will be a bargain and simply compare everything to the going low-end retail rate.

[jdaw1]

These prices look God-awful from North America. Six bottles of Taylor 1977 for 1,100 Euro? That is twice what you can get it for here per bottle, not even adding the weak dollar/Euro conversion. Mon Dieu!

I almost bid once. A lot’s current price was below my maximum, so I raised my card (number 47). One auctioneer saw me, the other saw somebody else, and the other chap was chosen. A few seconds later another bid came in, and my threshold was crossed, and then greatly surpassed. My bid card saw no further action during the whole evening. Afterwards I had two beers, both Leffe.

Pricing? ‟Mon Dieu!” is a good summary.

[SushiNorth]

The F80 might have been a good deal, but in general the auction only suggests that frenchmen hold port dearer than I expected.

[jdaw1]

866: 6×F80 @ €380

€380+bp ≈ €465 ≈ $675, so $112/bottle. Wine-Searcher lists four US places selling it cheaper than $80/bottle.

in general the auction only suggests that frenchmen hold port dearer than I expected.

Several of the more expensive lots, and of the cheaper lots, went to a telephone bidder, who always took the whole parcel.

[jdaw1]

By chance the Wiseman Household recently reached a conclusion that had previously been reached by the Wine Committee of the Worshipful Company of Merchant Taylors:



I need 100 dozen of ≤1863s. If I find more for sale, we can split.