Oldest bottles

[djewesbury]

This summer we tasted a 1795 Madeira. Elsewhere on the forum AHB has written of tasting (I think) a 1792. I expect the oldest ports that members have drunk are at least half a century younger. Am I wrong?

What's the oldest port you've drunk? And was it the oldest drink of any kind that you've had, or have there been others older?

[jdaw1]

With other obvious suspects I have enjoyed an 1830 Ferreira, supplied by CMAG. But AHB has posted TNs of an 1815 Ferreira, and of an 1815 Royal Oporto. Axel has posted about an 1834 Ferreira.

[DRT]

AHB brought a bottle of something to my house a few years ago that I think was from the 18th century. I can't remember what is was but it wasn't Port.

[jdaw1]

This summer we tasted a 1795 Madeira. Elsewhere on the forum AHB has written of tasting (I think) a 1792. I expect the oldest ports that members have drunk are at least half a century younger. Am I wrong?

The region was formally demarcated in 1755, and fortification became standard near the turn of the century. An unfortified 1754, bottled in a bottle that couldn’t be racked, would not have been intended to last many decades.

[PhilW]

The oldest vintage port (vs colheita) I have drunk with a definitive date was from 1922. I'm not counting:
- a "believed 1912" which was believable but not proven
- a "Whites of Leicester 1873" which was total vinegar

I have a bottle of something (just) older than 1922 to bring to the Bell this year, so will be guaranteed increase my "definitive oldest vintage port drunk", assuming nothing horrendous occurs in the interim!

The oldest drink of any style which I have drunk was the Oloroso 1830 sherry which Tom brought along last xmas.

[Andy Velebil]

The region was formally demarcated in 1755, and fortification became standard near the turn of the century. An unfortified 1754, bottled in a bottle that couldn’t be racked, would not have been intended to last many decades.

Some standardization of fortification is generally put around 1815 by the industry. But it is believed to be a bit later than that before wine making practices across the board are most similar to today's fortification methods.

[jdaw1]

My understanding was that there was not a single date, but that around the turn of the century it went from rare to ubiquitous. Perhaps ubiquity had been reached by 1815?

[djewesbury]

My understanding was that there was not a single date, but that around the turn of the century it went from rare to ubiquitous. Perhaps ubiquity had been reached by 1815?

However, not all merchants encouraged the practice and it was not until well into the 19th century that this method of fortification became widely adopted. Nevertheless, it gradually gained acceptance. The prosperity of the last years of the 18th century released the capital necessary to accumulate stocks of wine and mature them for longer. The superior ageing potential of Port wines that had been fortified became apparent. The turning point is sometimes said to have been the exceptional harvest of 1820 which produced Ports so magnificent that subsequent vintages could not approach their richness and power unless they were fortified. In any event, fortification had become widespread by the 1840s and by 1850 was probably universal.

But don't forget the Baron..

He campaigned against fortification until his death in 1862

[Andy Velebil]

My understanding was that there was not a single date, but that around the turn of the century it went from rare to ubiquitous. Perhaps ubiquity had been reached by 1815?

No, from all I've read and been told there has never been an exact date where everything changed in unison. Hence, my use of "around". But around 1815 is generally regarded as the birth of modern Port. Though it wasn't believed until later, around the mid 1800's, where there seemed to be a more standard way of fortifying during fermentation.

[uncle tom]

Oldest port I've drunk was Ferreira 1830. Oldest I've opened was Unk 1851.

I have some half bottles of sherry with a solera date of 1770.

[Glenn E.]

The oldest I've tasted is an 1851 Warre.

[mpij]

The oldest port I've drunk is Taylor's 1945.

[mpij]

This summer we tasted a 1795 Madeira. Elsewhere on the forum AHB has written of tasting (I think) a 1792. I expect the oldest ports that members have drunk are at least half a century younger. Am I wrong?

What's the oldest port you've drunk? And was it the oldest drink of any kind that you've had, or have there been others older?

By oldest dou you mean earliest or of greater age when drunk? My answer would remain the same either way.

[jdaw1]

My understanding was that there was not a single date, but that around the turn of the century it went from rare to ubiquitous. Perhaps ubiquity had been reached by 1815?

No, from all I've read and been told there has never been an exact date where everything changed in unison. Hence, my use of "around". But around 1815 is generally regarded as the birth of modern Port. Though it wasn't believed until later, around the mid 1800's, where there seemed to be a more standard way of fortifying during fermentation.

Your reply began ‟No”, then seemed to agree with me. At least one of us misunderstanding.

[LGTrotter]

1860 for madeira, 1927 for port are my vital statistics. I can never bring myself to fork out for older ports these days purely on the quality price ratio. Madeira I can understand lashing out on as there is a reasonable chance of getting something good.

There is a reprint of 'the earliest port wine label' in John Hurley's 'A matter of taste; a history of wine drinking in Britain' which I am sure I have seen elsewhere. It reads; Companhia geral, do alto douro, vino tinto do douro, do anno de seventeen fifty six (in figures). Is this actually likely to have been port in any meaningful sense?

[Glenn E.]

Is this actually likely to have been port in any meaningful sense?

In name only. As previously noted, Port wasn't generally a fortified wine until around 1815, so this would probably have been a dry red wine.

[g-man]

i've had a few 1880? ports during an old and odd a few years back when jdaw was in ny.

he also poured a thimble of some 1700 something madeira

recently i had a 1896 madeira from berns steakhouse in tampa (was surprinsingly delicious)!

[jdaw1]

i've had a few 1880? ports during an old and odd a few years back when jdaw was in ny.

Old & Odd, Friday 7^th November 2008? (My TNs were more pretentious then.)

he also poured a thimble of some 1700 something madeira

1792, wedding leftovers?

[LGTrotter]

Old & Odd, Friday 7^th November 2008? (My TNs were more pretentious then.)

No! A few hundred words of Wilde paint a better picture than all that 'gobs of wurzelberry and 94+ points' malarkey ever will. is poorer for your lack of 'pretension'.

[jdaw1]

No! A few hundred words of Wilde paint a better picture than all that 'gobs of wurzelberry and 94+ points' malarkey ever will. is poorer for your lack of 'pretension'.

The Lizards ! took an immense fancy to him, and when he grew tired of running about and flung himself down on the grass to rest, they played and romped all over him, and tried to amuse him in the best way they could. ‟Every one cannot be as beautiful as a lizard,” they cried; ‟that would be too much to expect. And, though it sounds absurd to say so, he is really not so ugly after all, provided, of course, that one shuts one’s eyes, and does not look at him.”

In my simple way, if it stinks, it stinks, and I don’t like it.

And it was bunberry, not wurzelberry.

[g-man]

i've had a few 1880? ports during an old and odd a few years back when jdaw was in ny.

Old & Odd, Friday 7^th November 2008? (My TNs were more pretentious then.)

he also poured a thimble of some 1700 something madeira

1792, wedding leftovers?

yes and no.

I believe you were going to a madiera tastin ghte next day, this was the day you were leaving ny and i brought the 1924 Taylor

[jdaw1]

I believe you were going to a madiera tastin ghte next day, this was the day you were leaving ny and i brought the 1924 Taylor

So on Tuesday 7^th July 2009? If so, that was a Soviet 1936 Lividia.

[LGTrotter]

In my simple way, if it stinks, it stinks, and I don’t like it.

And it was bunberry, not wurzelberry.

I think Mr Wilde also said that anyone who called a spade a spade should be compelled to use one.

Perhaps you were on a 'Bunberry' to New York but I doubt you tasted one.

[jdaw1]

Cecily. This is no time for wearing the shallow mask of manners. When I see a spade I call it a spade.
Gwendolen. I am glad to say that I have never seen a spade. It is obvious that our social spheres have been widely different.

Are we drifting off subject?

[LGTrotter]

Cecily. This is no time for wearing the shallow mask of manners. When I see a spade I call it a spade.
Gwendolen. I am glad to say that I have never seen a spade. It is obvious that our social spheres have been widely different.

Are we drifting off subject?

Oh yes. But I see you are still quoting Oscar at me. Which gives me a the same warm feeling that 'the Happy Prince' must have had.

[TLW]

The oldest port was 1950 Cockburn - very difficult to recommend.

The oldest madeira was an 1815 - which was very, very good - although I think the 1863 solera to be possibly the most enjoyable drink I have ever had - still have one bottle left, and am waiting for some special occasion to drink it. Typically, I only drink on days that end in "y", but the last madeira may require a slightly higher standard.

[g-man]

I believe you were going to a madiera tastin ghte next day, this was the day you were leaving ny and i brought the 1924 Taylor

So on Tuesday 7^th July 2009? If so, that was a Soviet 1936 Lividia.

No it was a 1700 madeira for sure

the lividia was taken home and drunk the next mornign with breakfast

[djewesbury]

Right. Enough Oscar.
I'm interested in and know little about madeira. I wonder, if it is so stable, does an old vintage ever actually 'improve' in bottle - and is there much point in keeping it? Might it not be as good today as it will be in 50 years (in which case, drink it today)?

[Roy Hersh]

In documents I've read and discussions I've been a part of, 1820 has been the date most often mentioned for the broad practice of fortification with Port wine.

As for oldest bottles tasted: 1802 Colheita, 1815 for Vintage Port and 1748 for Madeira.

This year I was a shown a true 1756 Vintage Port. My photo of it went on FB.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Right. Enough Oscar.
I'm interested in and know little about madeira. I wonder, if it is so stable, does an old vintage ever actually 'improve' in bottle - and is there much point in keeping it? Might it not be as good today as it will be in 50 years (in which case, drink it today)?

Madeira is pretty stable stuff, virtually pasteurized before being ready for drinking. Made the old fashioned way it was shaken and buffetted in barrel, exposed to tropical temperatures and humidity and exposed to whatever air leached in through the wood of the barrel. The result is that you have a wine which is exceedingly robust and quite capable of lasting centuries in the bottle. Whether it improves or not, I have no idea. Perhaps in 50 years I will get to try another bottle of 1792 Bual and I will let you know. What I can say is that old Madeira which has been in the bottle for many decades can be very drinkable. My taste is definitely at the mid-sweeter end of the Madeira spectrum - I rarely enjoy a Verdelho or Sercial and sometimes find a Malvasia too sweet. Bual seems to be generally where my tastebuds lie.

Oldest wine I have ever drunk knowing the identity was the 1792 Blandy's Bual. Oldest Port were the two 1815s that Julian has mentioned.

I did once own a bottle of something that tasted like Curacao which was in a very odd hand-blown bottle that had a fairly squat barrel and long, slender neck. This was purported to have once been in the Musuem of the distillers Humphrey, Taylor & Co and was sealed with a wax sealed, driven cork on which the number "1700" had been stamped. Whether this was a vintage date (or distillation date) I will never know. It was very thick and concentrated in flavour, sweet but bitter and full of powerful orange flavours. I'm pretty sure it wasn't table wine, Port or Madeira but don't really know what that was. If it was from 1700 it was the oldest thing I have ever drunk.

And the oldest bottle of port I have seen was from 1790. A bottle was offered in an auction in Denmark 2-3 years ago (I didn't bid for it).

[LGTrotter]

Right. Enough Oscar.
I'm interested in and know little about madeira. I wonder, if it is so stable, does an old vintage ever actually 'improve' in bottle - and is there much point in keeping it? Might it not be as good today as it will be in 50 years (in which case, drink it today)?

I do not think that it improves much in bottles. Sorry to quote someone else but I think it sums it up beautifully;
' "And yet" said Chestnut "Madeira is never good in England. Is it climate or do they not know how to keep it?"
"Both, both" returned Wilmington. "They bottle all wines and that is simply fatal. Madeira was never meant to be retailed. It improves in its own society. As greatness is apt to do." Silas Weir Mitchell, 'The Madeira party'.

The point being that Madeira improves in barrel and to a lesser extent in large demijohns, rather than in bottles. I am not sure it declines much but others report that it can become rather 'dumb' with a long time in bottle hence the reccomendation, which I can support, of decanting wines which have been in bottle for a long time for about a week.

The next few lines of the book are a suggestion that port keeps better in five gallon demijohns.

[jdaw1]

Oldest Port were the two 1815s that Julian has mentioned.

Were they fortified?

[marc j.]

The oldest vintage port would a 1830 Ferreira. In terms of Colheitas, the oldest would be a 1875 A.J.S. Da Silva.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Oldest Port were the two 1815s that Julian has mentioned.

Were they fortified?

I believe they were.

[Axel P]

I believe that the question should rather be "What is the oldest Port that you much enjoyed despite the age?".

My "best-to-enjoy" window however is more on the 1912-1970 side. Maybe not as impressive from the age, but even more from the taste. I know that there are some good to exciting 1908s and 1904s and even 1900s on the market, but many of those have actually passed their prime.

The somewhat 25 Ports I had from the 19th century were all very drinkeable, but most of them a bit tired. The ones who weren't might have been pepped up a bit, I believe.

Just my two cents on this.

Axel

[djewesbury]

Thanks Axel. Very good points I think.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I believe that the question should rather be "What is the oldest Port that you much enjoyed despite the age?"

The oldest vintage ports I would be confident of enjoying would be from the 1908 and 1912 vintages. Older than this my experience is that I would expect them to be lighter and fading or faded. I have had exceptions; Tom's unknown 1851 at the last Christmas offline being a good example.